[Sheppard]

Found this translation and accompanying note on the internet:

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I was first made aware of this item when I read Update on the Swedish Muslims’ Demands it has a link to this the list in Swedish since many people don't speak Swedish I've translated it for your benefit.

Due to certain Swedish laws and attitudes I'd rather be anonymous, so I've asked a handful of people to spread this translation. I am presenting this translation without any comments whatsoever, you can make up your own mind:

An open letter to all Swedish political parties that are participating in this years election.

Hello!

If we are to succeed in engaging Swedish muslims so that they will participate in the election in September 2006, we should take note of the following demands and wishes from the Muslim minority in Sweden.

I have not seen clear signals from all parties as to whether they'll accept such wishes. We want to see the most important demands as a part of the political programs. Otherwise there is the risk that the majority of the muslims will remain on their couches on election day.

Muslims are fed up with broken election promises, and therefore they wish concrete suggestions to show that we care. It won't hurt if our elected representatives or new candidates would set aside an hour to read our open letter that is sent to all established parties.

Kind regards

Mahmoud Aldebe

The Forgotten Minority

Islam in Sweden, a short history.

Sweden didn't really get its first contact with Muslims before immigration began during the 1940s, when the first Muslims came from the east, that is from Finland and Estonia, they were Tatars and it was they who established the first house prayer assembly in Stockholm 60 years ago. The Muslims who immigrated during in the 1960-1970 period was part of the big labour immigration. Between 1970 and 1990 the immigration changed character, a flood of refugees began to make up a much larger share of the number of Muslims in Sweden. The Islamic community calculates the number of Muslims in Sweden to be roughly 470 000 people. Everyone that through birth belongs within a tradition [culture] traditionally dominated by Islam, who accepts the Islamic declaration of faith, belongs to a Muslim people, is descendant of Muslims, have a first name that belongs in an Islamic tradition, and who themselves identifies with or considers themselves part of this religion or tradition are Muslims. There are some immigrant Muslims that don't want contact with the Islamic community and that considers themselves secularized, and on occasion we have heard that they are objecting to being considered Muslims. It is hard to calculate the exact numbers but from our analysis and mapping, we can assume that there are approximately 15% of the Swedish Muslims that want nothing to do with Islam and that want to be considered as Swedes with an ethnic background.

Swedish Muslim rights and duties, special laws for religious freedom.

Regarding the problems that concern the legal status of Muslims - concerning everything from laws regarding residency- and work-permits, denominational issues and the legal status of their religious functions to possibilities to, with the support of religious freedom, to practise and live according to the message of Islam - the situation various enormously.

We have struggled, often with little progress, to make Islam accept on the same terms, and with the same (legal) rights, as any other religion in the country. Despite that you talk about the same general rights for all religions, there are still in practise big differences between the ability of different religions to work in the community.

We require special laws protecting religious freedom since all the conventions regarding human rights that Sweden have committed itself to, we are thinking especially of the UNs declaration of human rights and the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights (ECPHR) all imply the right to create special laws protecting religious freedom. Creating such specific laws is really about religious freedom since here in Sweden there has been full religious freedom since 1951.

Swedish Muslims have become more and more politically aware of their rights in the community and now they wish for these rights to be respected. To be able to affect Swedish politics and to maintain an effective dialogue and conversation between Swedish Muslims and the different organs of the community [state in this context] we present these practical and necessary solutions that must be carried out if you wish a successful integration policy and a diversified Sweden.

Svenska muslimer är en svensk minoritet

Religious freedom should apply to everyone, and the UNs different declarations in this regard are applicable even in Sweden. So in reality all laws should be altered or adjusted after the needs of all minority groups in Sweden. We Muslims are a large minority group in Sweden, but lack status and the laws created to protect religious freedom must be applied in their widest meaning so that they don't just apply to certain minorities and the majority, but rather they should applied even to the Muslim minority in the country. The problems that exist in regards to the Swedish religious freedom is that it is a Pietistic coloured understanding of individualised religion, that lie behind the Swedish laws regarding religious freedom, whereas for the Muslim minority it is the collective expressions of the religion that are central. One considers the religion more like a way of life than a belief system. It is also a part of ordinary life, with its social rules and judgements, through which religious allegiance is displayed, and the religion practised, not primarily through prayer and sermons and the common religious language that is Arabic. This is why certain Islamic religious practises come outside what is covered by religious freedom.

The Muslim minority criticises this narrow definition of religion that is the basis of the Swedish laws regarding religious freedom. Specific laws are required when it comes to the legal protection of the Muslim minority. With such protection we can request corrections of the Swedish family law to adapt it to Islam. It is this law that is the most important to Swedish Muslims: marriage, divorce, child protection, and raising underage children.

It is also a matter of having the right to take a vacation on some of the two major religious holidays, and to be allowed a few hours time off in the middle of the day on Friday to participate in the Friday prayers. In such matters we special legislation is seen as essential to protect the Muslim identity of the Swedish Muslims. The ability to live entirely according to Islamic family law if you wish to do so is very limited in Sweden [it is very difficult to do so], unless we get status as a separate minority.

Islamic religious community in Sweden

In Sweden there are more than 185 local Islamic assemblies, but only a very few mosques. Several mosque projects are underway. The community views this as a threat and many individuals and groups are loudly protesting. Counties and provinces ought to elevate all the so called basement- and apartment mosques around the country to equal status with Churches, if the local politicians want to bring about a practical integration in the country. The resistance to mosque building comes from certain persons and from organised groups. The arguments that are most often used against mosque building are those linked to the environment [surroundings] in that a mosque would lead to increase traffic, and among other things increased air pollution, and noise. The mosque has been seen as an encroachment on parkland. The negative views on mosque building also contains comments and questions about Islam and Muslims. People talk about the immigration numbers and if they'll increase, about friction between Swedes and Muslims as well as internally between Muslim groups that frequent the area. Many people are openly saying that the limit has been reached, and that the Muslims should accept the customs of the place they've come to. The threat [damage] to Swedish values and culture is often held up as an argument. That one thinks ill of or is afraid of Islam as a religion or movement is also often given as a reason among those that argue against mosque building. This strong ill will can hardly be changed by counter argument and is nourished by ignorance or mythology [bigotry, fantasy] about what it [Islam] stands for. Construction of mosques and financing this construction is a big problem for Muslims in Sweden, the basement facilities that exist are no longer sufficient as they are getting much too cramped.

Basement People

Muslims are called the basement people by young Muslims that are loathe to participate in activities in such underground facilities, often hinting at the problems caused by the local environment such as poor air quality in basements that often lack proper ventilation. Many get sick from underground facilities or bicycle sheds.

Swedish Muslims wishes and hopes.

A mosque in every city or county would have significant value to the Muslims of the country. It would be seen as a recognition of the existence of Muslims and Islams right to exist in Sweden. The right to be a Muslim in Sweden is strengthened if there is legislated religious freedom that gives Muslim groups the right to build their own mosques without any obstacles and it would be a sign from the Swedish majority community that religious freedom can work in practise as well. A mosque has several roles other than simply being a place of worship. The mosque is the house of a great people that functions as a social and cultural institution, a place to meet, where the contact with the Swedish community and its fellow citizens happens daily. The demand to be allowed to build Mosques is a step in a process of Muslim integration that is occurring in Sweden. It is a matter of fundamental needs to keep and practise your religion, but also to be able to improve the status of Muslims and gain respect and understanding. In such a situation it would greatly increase the sense of loyalty towards Sweden as your new homeland, despite being a Muslim.

The creation of interest free loans.

The construction of mosques ought to be financed by interest free loans as an alternative to voluntary contributions from abroad. The counties should take the responsibility to either provide security for these interest free loans or to lend money without interest for the construction of mosques for its Muslim inhabitants. The Swedish state should introduce the term interest free loans and borrowers should have the right to deduct payments on interest free loans from the tax returns on the same grounds as loan interest.

Islam and the school

To integrate Islam into Swedish schools reduces the demand for separate private Islamic schools.

This includes elevating native language and religion [Islam] to the level of normal subject in the curriculum, where Muslim children have the possibility of being educated in homogenous groups using their own native language and their own religion in the County schools. Imams and native language teachers should have status as ordinary teachers in Second Native Language and religion. In this way the demand for separate private schools would lessen and many of the problems Muslim students meet daily in school would easily be eliminated.

Education in school would not be held in a different language from the Swedish, aside from the traditional Native Language education and the increase religious education in their own religion.

Islamic schools

To support the establishment of Islamic elementary schools in densely populated areas with many Muslims where Muslim students would have the opportunity to study in homogeonous groups could reinforce the students cultural and religious identity and this way many of the problems that Muslim students meet every day would very simply be eliminated, among other things Native Language, religious education, the issue of Muslim food, the gymnastics [physical education] question, and there could be a concrete way of helping girls and boys from Muslim countries to participate in segregated swimming classes and thereby graduate with a school diploma.
Many Muslim students finish their High School education without being able to swim at all.

Health and Physical Education

Every county ought to have one night a week that should be a womans evening, and respectively a mans evening, in the gym and the swimming hall. The entire hall [facility] should be open only for women women or men, whereas other evenings would be for both genders. This is among other things about giving young girls from Muslim countries the opportunity to participate in swimming education and thereby getting a passing grade [equiv to anything above an F] in gymnastics [physical education]. The prerequisite for this is that there are no young boys or adults in the swimming hall. The very presence of the opposite sex prevents certain girls with an immigrant background from taking advantage of the swimming education. Among other things ethnic and religious causes means that Muslim girls may not bathe together with young boys and men.

It is both dangerous and injust to that the girls are often not able to swim at all. Thousands of immigrant women can never use the swimming hall and training facilities. This is a pity. Exercise and activity is required by all and the problem with swimming education and training in the official locales is very great for immigrants men and women.

Demands

We demand that county politicions should deliberate this matter immediately. The counties are responsible to make sure that school children get their degrees. All youth regardless of background shall have the opportunity to get a passing grade in gymnastics [physical education]. With good will this could easily be done.

Muslim holidays

That the riksdag [Parliament] create a law that gives Swedish Muslims the right to take vacation time during the Islamic holidays of Eid al fitr and Eid al Adha is a demand from all Muslims. Currently it is impossible to take time off to celebrate the vacation along with your family.

Demands

We demand special legislation in this matter that is the right to two days paid vacation in connection to the celebration of these holidays and that these two days cover the need to celebrate the holidays for Sunni and Shia muslims and it proves that our religion and culture are accepted by the community.

Wishes and hopes

To solve the integration problem requires a true adjustment of legislation to accommodate the Muslim demand for vacation during the celebration of their holidays. To be able to keep your religious way of life at the same time as the Muslims are integrated into the Swedish community, creates a real diversity in the community. Muslims demand that the government shall investigate the possibility of whether a special law is possible and how in this case it shall be motivated given existing legislation in the religious freedom law [Ed note: Just as incomprehensible in the original.] Muslims are in other words demand special treatment in terms of legislation as they are a minority and this would increase their status and protect them from the majority community.

UN and EU conventions

In Sweden one is often pointed to the constitutionally protected freedom of religion and, since January 1995, the equally constitutionally protected European convention about human rights and the fundamental liberties. The support for special legislation can be found even there, but Sweden today chooses to interpret the laws and conventions in such a narrow way that religious freedom is in practise reduced to a level that is unacceptable.

Muslims as a religious minority has, like any other religious minority, according to, among other things, the UNs international convention on civic and political rights, the right to have their own culture, the right to profess and practise their own religion or use their own language.

Friday prayer and time off

Two hours of time off for Friday prayer, between 12-14 o clock winter time, and between 13-15 o clock summer time. The Friday prayer is an obligatory prayer that must be conducted collectively in the mosque. Employers are loathe to even talk about the matter with their Muslim employees. The state, as the biggest employer, ought to be an example for other employers in the private sector. A religious minorities interests and struggle to preserve their identity coincides with both the legislation regarding religious freedom and the established legal minority rights. It would be good to investigate if there is support for special legislation in the relevant parts of the declarations, conventions, and legislation for our just demands.

Halal butchery (permitted foods for Muslims)

To contribute to giving the Muslims and Jews dispensation or special legislation to perform the Islamic and Jewish butchery. In a series of international speeches and conventions it is established that religious freedom is a human right. That certain food items are prohibited to Muslims, especially any products of pigs, are now commonly accepted in the Swedish communities. Institutional food halls are therefore been adapted to providing special food for Muslims and Jews. Since pig products are often used in food items and other every day objects it has become more difficult for Muslims to determine what can be considered permissible foods. The Department of Food Items has therefore created a listing of any food items that contain pig products as a guide to Swedens muslims and Jews, but access to permitted Swedish meet (halal) can still be a problem. In Sweden animals may not be ritually slaughtered before anaesthesia, but you are permitted to import food to be used for our permitted meals.

It is imported meet that is used in the institutional dining halls in, among other places, all schools. Halal butchery has become a special problem for Muslims. This is especially true in connection to the sacrifical feast (Kurban or Eid al Adha) where Muslim families slaughter a lamb due to religious traditions. Since 1937 it has been prohibited in Sweden to ritually slaughter large animals without preceeding anaesthesia. The demand for anaesthesia was part of a larger reform initiate to protect animals. However the law did not only have animal welfare in mind, an important argument was also a distaste for foreign customs. This prohibition against slaughtering according to Jewish and Muslim traditions remains all the same. It has several times been brought up in the riksdag [Parliament] but the decision makers have been unwilling to change their attitude. As late as in 1992 a study made by the ministry of agriculture determined that ritual slaughter cannot be accepted in Sweden. Now however there is a new study being made by the department of agriculture and we hope that the decision makers will come to a positive conclusion.

Burial Grounds

Despite the fac that Islam has existed for 32 years as an organised religion in Sweden, the construction of burial grounds has been constantly hampered. Other than in the forest church yard in Stockholm there are Muslim burial grounds in 20 something countries, but that is not enough. Today there are Muslims in nearly 100 counties that lack burial grounds. The biggest general problem that Muslims encounter is that their dead are to be buried as quickly as possible, according to Islamic custom, and by a Muslim burial in their home county.

Muslims demand that the Union of Congregations [head organ] in the Swedish Church co-operates with the countries counties to reserve burial plots in all counties that have Muslim inhabitants.

Muslims also demand that the ombudsman in each province will, in matters of funerals, take full responsibility to accommodate the Muslim demands for burial grounds.

Imam education in Sweden

Starting Imam education in Swedish universities and colleges is a demand from the nations Muslims and from Swedish authorities. The education can be created as part theology education, part Native Language (Arabian) education. Students can get permission to function as language and theology [religion] teachers. This education can create a natural integration of Islam in Swedish schools, and reduce the demand for private schools.

Opinion making

That the Swedish legal system is democratic and non-discriminating must in practise mean that the system should protect all people and ethnicities in the country, but this isn't always enough as the Muslims see it. People that belong to minority groups can require special rights to be able to exist on an equal footing with the majority. The biggest problem that Muslims face is the opinions of the majority. The community is responsible [or guilty] for trying to assimilate the immigrants of the nation. Both in daily speech and learned discussion the community uses such concepts and expressions in regards to Muslims that are untrue, distorted, and laden with negative undertones. Borders are made between "us" and "them".

As members of the dominant majority culture you're equipped with your own cultures blinkers that gives you great trouble when it comes to seeing the whole picture. The stark one sided focussing on the problems are strengthening the already widespread idea that "the immigrants have forced their way into Sweden and they are a burden on the country's natural resources" and that "they're the only ones that are to blame for the high unemployment and economic crisis not to mention the cause of their own problems." Today you openly speak about the Muslims as if they are not proper, full members of the Swedish community.

The negative image of Muslims are maintained and strengthened by the media and not least by the Swedish educational system. Muslims immediately pick up on the negative connotations [subtext, undertone] that are used to describe their existence. It cannot be denied that this will affect their self-image and the end result is that they are kept outside of the community.

Many Muslims experience discrimination, especially at work or when they are looking for housing. The biggest problem in the integration politics is that second generation children and youths cannot find their place in every day life. This should be seen as an expression of negative Swedish cultural influence that has rubbed off on the youth.

Wishes and Hopes

Swedens Muslims express displeasure towards those local politicians that are not doing anything to increase the struggle against Islamophobia in Sweden.
The Muslims express displeasure towards towards employers, both in the private and the public sectors, since they [the muslims] cannot get work because of their origin, skin colour, foreign name and religion.

Muslims demand that the community should treat them in the same way as you treat native Swedes and the Muslims want to live under the same circumstances as their Swedish neighbours.

Muslims want help to create a creative future on the basis of their cultural background and religious allegiance, if this is done they will feel at home in their new homeland.
If the Security Police will continue to consider Islam a violent religion and Muslims as a security risk, the community will force young religious Muslims to segregate and that is not good either for the community or for the Muslims.

Islamic culture should be a part of the multi-cultural community. It is up to the community as the maintainers of the dominant culture to recognise Muslims as full fellow citizens, and give Muslims the same social, cultural, economic, political, religious, and personal right as the "native Swedes" enjoy themselves.

Mahmoud Aldebe
Sveriges Muslimska Förbund

[snip contact information]

[Skybird]

Gasp... :dead:

Especially liked this one: "If the Security Police will continue to consider Islam a violent religion and Muslims as a security risk, the community will force young religious Muslims to segregate and that is not good either for the community or for the Muslims."

In other word's: give us our ways, or we turn violant.

Some weeks ago they had a Muslim conference in Austria, and oh so split-tongued declarations of how much they want to integrate. Some sentences later, such intentions already got turned relative again. Say "Yes! " and shake your head! Of course the conditions of integration and the definition of standards they want to integrate into got defined by Muslim values, using the backdoor to bring them into play again.

Well, my anger is already growing again, I think I ignore this one round and take a time-out.

Oh, on the story of the German schoolgirls gotten banned from school when starting to wear burkhas (I referred to that one or two days ago), the German Council of Muslims has supported the banning in word. Horray! And at the same day they defended the King Fahd academy who is a known source of anti-constitutional activities and financer and supporter of such provocations, and is in close touch of at least one of the two families in this case.

Say "Yes!" and shake your head! Make oaths, and cross your fingers behind your back!

[Ishmael]

What it reminds me of is the scene from Woody Allen's movie,"Bananas". After the rebels take over a Central American country, the new leader addresses the people for his first speech. He says as follows:

"From this day forward, the official language of San Marcos will be Swedish. Everyone under 17 years of age is now 17 years of age. Everyone in San Marcos will change their underwear every half-hour. Underwear will be worn on the outside so we can check it."

[The Avon Lady]

I just ordered my copy of Bat Ye'or's Eurabia.

[Abraham]

Hmmm, I guess this will get me some Flak...

First of all, I find it a very positive thing that the Sveriges Muslimska Förbund (Swedish Muslims) are adressing their demands to the Swedish political parties on the eve of elections. The optimist in me could even call it a sign of changing times.

As far as the content of the letter, I notice that it seems very honest. For instance:

[Skybird]

Swedish Imam education came coupled with the demand of educating islam in public schools, and that rabaic should be accepted, too.

That author was quick in referring to the west'S laws that protect freedom of religion. That Islam does make no difference between religion and politics, he hides. So the implication is he demand that the spreading of Islamic politics should be protected by the state.

Islam has worked for cooperating with different religions. Historically I only laugh about that. It's not on Islam'S agenda.

"To be able to effect Swedish politics" -I do not want Islam to effect western politics on national level. That'S why I am so unforgining agaimnst ongoing Muslim immigration. The sheer number sooner or later will make it impossible to keep them away from demands for Islamic effecting of national politics, and founding Islamic parties. An uncompromised No! from me.

Before an Islamic group starts talking on religious freedom applying to everyone, they should apply that to the existing Muslims states in which religious freedom of anything that is not Islamic is supressed, driven back, eliminated since centuries and over one thousand years. It is a systematical cultural cleansing, and it cause the slaughtering of different beolievers in Muslims coutnries in local programs by the tens of thousands each and every year.

"The problems that exist in regards to the Swedish religious freedom is that it is a Pietistic coloured understanding of individualised religion, that lie behind the Swedish laws regarding religious freedom, whereas for the Muslim minority it is the collective expressions of the religion that are central blablabla" Who is he to call the Swedish way of understanding a "problem"? He lives in their country, so he plays to their rules, period. Instead he demands they should change according to his rules. So much for his integration. He won't integrate, neither now nor in the future, send him back to arbaia or whereever he has come from.

It's their way of life, he says next, and that "Islamic religious practises come outside what is covered by religious freedom." Again, he plays to the rules of his hosting nation and adopts to that, or he leaves.

"With such protection we can request corrections of the Swedish family law TO ADAPT it to Islam." - Speaks for itself.

"It is also a matter of having the right to take a vacation on some of the two major religious holidays, and to be allowed a few hours time off in the middle of the day on Friday to participate in the Friday prayers. In such matters we special legislation is seen as essential to protect the Muslim identity of the Swedish Muslims. " - Von mir aus - but only when the Muslim in questions pays the finacnial bill for these brakes that are caused for his employer, and only if the working processes inside his employer'S orgnaization can afford that, and do not sufer in efficiency.

"The ability to live entirely according to Islamic family law if you wish to do so is very limited." - Big deal. Sweden is no Muslim country, maybe someone forgot to tell him.

"but only a very few mosques. Several mosque projects are underway. The community views this as a threat and many individuals and groups are loudly protesting." - They see it as a threat. Big deal. Let them see it as a threat. Every mosque we must not see is a nice view.

"equal status with Churches" - Why that? Islam is no equal. That I invite a guest does not mean I miust allow him to sleep in my bed. eventually the couch is all that he gets. what I consider to be okay. At least I will not stab him while he is sleeping. That is protection enough.

"This strong ill will can hardly be changed by counter argument and is nourished by ignorance or mythology [bigotry, fantasy] about what it [Islam] stands for." - and this from a representative of an ideology that has cuased more history-falsing, language controlling, cultural conquest than any other religion, culture, or ideology in mankind's history. Hypocritic braindead zombie.

"the basement facilities that exist are no longer sufficient as they are getting much too cramped. " - Which only says that Islam is expanding.

"A mosque in every city or county would have significant value to the Muslims of the country. It would be seen as a recognition of the existence of Muslims and Islams right to exist in Sweden." - Islam's right to exist in Sweden? It has no such rights. It may ask the local residents if they want accept it, and if they say No, it has to leave, verdammt noch mal.

He does not memntion the two-split role of musques in Germany, being a center of coordination for the further expalknding of Islam, and often centres of anti-constitutional conspiracy (even terror). All the activities he mentioned - could be done in any place, do not need "a mosque in every city", as he demanded done paragraph above.

Every piece of Muslimc infratsdructure beeing allowed today - will weaken our culture's ability to defend itself in the future, and drive Islam back.

"This includes elevating native language and religion [Islam] to the level of normal subject in the curriculum, where Muslim children have the possibility of being educated in homogenous groups using their own native language and their own religion in the County schools." - The Swedes better ask us Germans with piur bad experiences with this, before they allow this to happen. Their own language? Arabic language? Muslim seperate schools? DonT the tell us they want to integrate? But they demand and aducatijknal system that enbales them to service their wish to keep separate?

"To support the establishment of Islamic elementary schools in densely populated areas with many Muslims where Muslim students would have the opportunity to study in homogeonous groups could reinforce the students cultural and religious identity and this way many of the problems that Muslim students meet every day would very simply be eliminated." - Here he says it in clear text: the problems they have are not solved by fully integrating into Swedish society, which oinlcudes it'
s habits and culture, but in raising hard-matter structures that allows Muslims to keep separate: "could raise the student'S cultural and religious identity". It is not about their identity, but that of Sweden. They integrate into the Swedish identity, or they leave. That simple.

"Many Muslim students finish their High School education without being able to swim at all" - that is not a problem of the Swedish school system, but the lacking willingness of Islam to integrate into it'S hosting nation. The schools offer scwimming lessons. Muslims just do not take them, for reasons they now hold others respknsible for. Ridiculous.

"Every county ought to have one night a week that should be a womans evening, and respectively a mans evening, in the gym and the swimming hall. " - Oh my God. Bakc to the medieval, in the name of Islam. Hooray!

"It is both dangerous and injust to that the girls are often not able to swim at all." - this damn hypocritical azzhole. the injustice is Islam's sick perception of females. Now he wants to make our tears an argument to accept Muslim rules. Bastard.

"With good will this could easily be done." - Indeed, mister. you just have to integrate into your hosting nation's culture. Accepting to melt into it is what integration is about.

"proves that our religion and culture are accepted by the community. " - Why should the Swedes beeing obligated to prove that they accept Islam? What if they do not accept it? Has Islam then a right to demand that they are made by force to accept it???

"Muslims are in other words demand special treatment in terms of legislation." - No, you fit in like anyone else, mister. Remember, you came to our place - not we to yours.

Next he talks on the UN guarantee of freedom of religion and such. He does not say that politics and religion are not kept separate in Islam. But this separation is key and basis for almost all Western constituions. so if this Islamic religio-politic amalgam is demanding freeedom of reloigion, it automatcially reserves the right by that that it's politcal demands are protected and must be accepted as well - under the umbrella of "freedom of religion". Like muhammad protected his agendas, deeds, demands, privileges by saying that they are God-wanted. nothin has changed.

Food, prayers next. I do not care for this superstition. If they do not like the way of living in our places, i wonder why they came.

"Starting Imam education in Swedish universities and colleges is ..." - Von mir aus. But we already have "comparing religious sciences" at German universities, with no special role for Islam. I would insist on islam taught at university means that it is part of such a program - and not being exclusively taught and propagated. supoorting one special ideolgy or wordviww is not the job of universities (if the never fail in that is something different). Public schools are not centres of producing new Muslims.

"People that belong to minority groups can require special rights to be able to exist on an equal footing with the majority". We have such minorities in parts of Germany too, for example the minority of nthe Danes in the northern county of Schleswig-Holstein. this is for historical reasons exclusively, the minority has been there since long. Islam has not the smallest historical right to demand it's presence in Sweden, or almost all parts of Europe, being accepted. Islam is a stranger, a foreigner, and a conqueror. It is idiotic to give a Muslim community the staus of a minority (which the protected rights of such a group). Muslims in Germany do not compoare to the Danes inSchleswig-Holstein - and I assume it is like this with regard to the Muslims in Sweden.

"The community is responsible [or guilty] for trying to assimilate the immigrants of the nation." - no, it is the duty of the new-arriving one to integrate, it is an active job by himself. He must change himself so much that he can assimilate into the new encvironment. but all this author is saying is demanding special rigths that make sure he will keep as separate as possible, preventing intrgation and assimilation. He does not want to get assimilated. He wants to infect the whole, so that it changes into something that is similiar to himself. That is no integration, but colonization. Hate to say it, but it very much works like a virus would work. There is a reason why it is often said: let one Muslim in, and you let in all global Ummah.

"The negative image of Muslims are maintained and strengthened by the media and not least by the Swedish educational system. Muslims immediately pick up on the negative connotations [subtext, undertone] that are used to describe their existence. It cannot be denied that this will affect their self-image and the end result is that they are kept outside of the community." - Of curse it cannot be that there may be reasons why they are perceived the way they are perceived. And again he speaks of cultural blinkers, and that one does not see Islam as what it really is. I have written so often and so much about the undefendable views of Islam on itself, and the masive falsing of history it conducts in order to shine in only the brightest of lights, whereas it has brought mankind constant conquest, war, violance, intolerance, arrogance, cultural takeover, and caused the biggest violent empire-building we know of in human history. The Godfather of a Mafia should not give lectures about laws and justice, I think. Becaaue he always will only mean "his" laws, "his" justice, "his" community.

"The Muslims express displeasure towards towards employers, both in the private and the public sectors, since they [the muslims] cannot get work because of their origin, skin colour, foreign name and religion. " - Wjhatever you say Mister. I would not give a job to a Nazi, and none of my appartements to a scientologist. And I also do not do anything that makes Muslim immigrants feel comfortable, for I do not want Islam spreading in my home culture. In fact I want it to be kiecked out, and this cannot be rewached by supporting Muslim interests. I have no obligation to accept your presence in MY place, as long as you came to me, not me to you. If you don't like it, you are free to leave and go back to that Muslim country where you have come from. There you can live together with people that are the same to you. We do not want to become like you, and you have no right to demand that from us.

"Muslims demand that the community should treat them in the same way as you treat native Swedes." - simple question: Why? If you are no converted Muslim, but an immigrated Muslim, you are no native Swede. Sweden accepts oyu, or decodes against that. You have nothing to demand in that regard. you have to accept the Yes or the No. In case of the latter, you better leave.

"Muslims want help to create a creative future on the basis of their cultural background and religious allegiance." - That is almost sarcasm, becasue creativity is anything but a strength of Idslamic culture. As a historical matter of fact it conquers the ressoruces of foreign cultures and then lives by them, when they are aten up, it stagnates. It has been like this since centuries, and this is the reason why Muslim countries are so many centuries behgind. They never have learned to raise and to buiold and to be creative in culturee-building. "On the basis of their cultural background" - they better should learn about our background, and adopt to that. then many problems would dissapear all by themselves.

Again, Europe is our place, not theirs. It is our cultures, not theirs, and our history, not theirs. We have the right of the home, not them. Here they play to our rules, or they do not play in our place any longer. Period.

If someone feels offended - there are plenty of Muslim countries that do fit your Muslim needs. Go there! Don't demand that we change according to your example. If you demand it nevertheless, I reserve the right to take measure of self-deefnse against you, by all means and levels of detemrination or violance needed to succeed in that. Article 20, section 4 of the German constitution gives me and every German the right to do so.

[STEED]

[TteFAboB]

Thanks Skybird, you spare me the hassle.

The hole thing is extremely sickening, similar demands by Pat Robertson, Pope Benedict XVI or the Dalai Lama would erupt in massive chaos world-wide. Good to know the Sveriges Muslimska Förbund are so irrelevant.

Except for that 15%, they should all have been kicked out already.

[Skybird]

[The Avon Lady]

[Wim Libaers]

Well, the usual stuff. Use freedom of religion (which doesn't mean much more than that believing in some other supreme being than the usual one isn't a criminal act) to get laws affecting most parts of society.

If this were accepted, you could do the same thing with nazism, just make Hitler a deity, write a prayer to Hitler, and demand legislation that permits you to gas Jews in your religious ceremonies, because it's an important part of your religious beliefs.

[Skybird]

Your opinion could be understood as an intended indirect offending of Nazism. Please learn more tolerance and spare us you Naziphobia. :doh: If you do not accept young Nazis, the community will force young Nazis to segregate and that is not good either for the community or for the Nationalsocialist movement. Nazism means freedom - the great freedom to be a Nazi. We want to participate in building true Nationalsocialist multiculturalism where all people can live peacefully together in true Arian spirit. :doh: That you tell so many lies about Hitler's message is only because you never truly understood him. A governmental Nazi education program in public schools, and three days a year where parks are reserved for parades and Arian "Fackelumzüge" would help to change that, and would be an expression of thisn society that it is honest in it's intention of democratic freedom and equality of all. It would give Nazism the feeling that it truly is accepted. This society is about the freedom of opinion and free speech, isn't it? :doh: If you reject Nazism, you only proove that you are a egocentric liar.

[TLAM Strike]

[Deamon]

[Catfish]

On "Eurabia":
Reviewer: Eric Kvaalen (Paris, France)

"Bat-Ye'or" wants to convince us that Islam has a stranglehold on Europe, that European politicians have been turned into submissive "dhimmis", and that all their policies on the Israeli-Arab dispute are dictated by the Arabs. She wants us to believe that Europe is motivated only by fear of losing their source of oil, fear of terrorism, and a desire to form a European-Arab axis to stand up to America.

Bat-Ye'or conveniently ignores whatever goes against her thesis, or else gives a very contrived interpretation of things. She is totally one-sided in her approach to the Arab-Israeli problem, never admitting that Israel is at all to blame. She believes that the Jews were simply exerting their rights when they took over most of the Holy Land (after campaigning hard to have the UN divide it into two states--a fact Bat-Ye'or ignores).

I am somewhat sympathetic to some of Bat-Ye'or's opinions, but I disagree with those who praise her analysis and her writing.

In general I find the book quite poorly written. A discerning eye will notice that she is presenting biased points of view as though she is presenting facts. This really diminishes her credibility, so that I don't trust her when she's talking about things I don't know much about. There are also quite a few sentences that are not well written. Sometimes she says really ridiculous things and gets herself tied up into knots. She gives me the impression of a not-very-good high school student who is trying to write a paper in support of a certain position, and who tries to think of every possible thing that could be interpreted as supporting her position!

So generally, I do not find her very convincing when she says that Europe has simply buckled and surrendered to the Islamic jihad. There is certainly some truth to the idea that Europe has been influenced by the desire to please the Arabs, but that is much too simple an explanation of history. Bat-Ye'or is obviously not the right person to analyze the question of to what extent Europe is bowing to pressure and to what extent it is acting on good will and conviction. She paints everything the Europeans do as cowardice.

I think this book is written for those who already think like her, and anybody else would find it practically useless. The amount I found interesting could have been written in a few pages."

Maybe you should not always read the books that tell you what you already think :hmm:

Greetings,
Catfish