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Salvadoreno
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 617
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 Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Myxale wrote: | Must've been a helluva trip!
To bad you didn't make it!
My boat with the "Tonnage Mod" made something like this, but not quite as deep. But hell nevertheless!
I got punded like hell; took heavy damage and fell fast to the endless bottom to 280 and counting and my crew and i tried to stop the boot.
But no; we sunk and sunk. at 330 when i just waited for the end, water everywhere; lights out in the dark and the shouts and darkness and the scream of steel.
Then the wonder, God bless my Virtual LI;
My crew somehow managed get a hold of the intense flooding last minute (second's more like it) and I desperately ordered blow ballast one last time and with the remaining little pressure that was left. And wow; Sweet Jesus! We catched the boot and stopped sinking around 340. 
Intense is not even close.
We made it flank ahead to the save deepth and mamaged to fix our boot to get to the nearest base. The partol ended early! With no praise or Tonnage for us! :hmm:
Thats why i love this game!
And the Mod!  |
dude what was ur hull integrity? |
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HM.Medico
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 21
Location: 60 Knots off shore, In a Kilo
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Myxale wrote: | Must've been a helluva trip!
To bad you didn't make it!
My boat with the "Tonnage Mod" made something like this, but not quite as deep. But hell nevertheless!
I got punded like hell; took heavy damage and fell fast to the endless bottom to 280 and counting and my crew and i tried to stop the boot.
But no; we sunk and sunk. at 330 when i just waited for the end, water everywhere; lights out in the dark and the shouts and darkness and the scream of steel.
Then the wonder, God bless my Virtual LI;
My crew somehow managed get a hold of the intense flooding last minute (second's more like it) and I desperately ordered blow ballast one last time and with the remaining little pressure that was left. And wow; Sweet Jesus! We catched the boot and stopped sinking around 340.
Intense is not even close.
We made it flank ahead to the save deepth and mamaged to fix our boot to get to the nearest base. The partol ended early! With no praise or Tonnage for us! :hmm:
Thats why i love this game!
And the Mod! |
Mad Freaking As, I envy all you SHIII players. Must Upgrade
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Keelbuster
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 263
Location: TO, ON
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| BigBadVuk wrote: | Most of the subs casualties are by implosion...U see a subs are build strong enought to withsand a lot of presure (btqw cylinder is a geometrical body with very high pressure tolerance)but at greater depths all bulkheads will colapsed all together in miliseconds interval becose of the so called domino effects: they r already well beyond their calculated stress and it is enought to just 1 of them colapse( i assumed that there is 1 or 2 ruptured compartments and that they r flooded so the pressure on the bulkheads are same as outside of hull) and cause sudden and agressive change of pressure to second 1 and then that one will colapse and so one...But like i sad usualy it takes miliseconds to happen and usualy boat is splited in 2-3 part(look at images of Trasher and Scorpion wrecks for example).If hull burst before bulkhead then it will be filled with water in seconds and u will be dead before u realise what happened becose your inner pressure is much smaller then outside.Your lungs,heart,stomack will colapse in a splitsecond and u will be dead.
If u were the part of crew u will be sitting in dark,in some unusual upsidedown position all around of u will be that rumbling-creeking nose of hull under pressure and then "snap" in 1 milisecond u r dead..Very fast and very merciful death compared to drawning... |
Thinking about water pressure a great depth - it's mostly a force that works in the vertical direction (i.e. along the axis towards the center of the earth), right? I'm thinking that the boat would likely be crushed vertically rather than horizontally. Or, perhaps, because it is a loose fluid, the pressure is roughly equal on all sides. Think about sand - in sand the pressure would be mostly from above. I bet you there's a pressure gradient (Vertical/horizontal) that depends on the liquid viscosity. They might build pressure hulls with this in mind?
Kb |
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GreyOctober
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Keelbuster wrote: | | BigBadVuk wrote: | Most of the subs casualties are by implosion...U see a subs are build strong enought to withsand a lot of presure (btqw cylinder is a geometrical body with very high pressure tolerance)but at greater depths all bulkheads will colapsed all together in miliseconds interval becose of the so called domino effects: they r already well beyond their calculated stress and it is enought to just 1 of them colapse( i assumed that there is 1 or 2 ruptured compartments and that they r flooded so the pressure on the bulkheads are same as outside of hull) and cause sudden and agressive change of pressure to second 1 and then that one will colapse and so one...But like i sad usualy it takes miliseconds to happen and usualy boat is splited in 2-3 part(look at images of Trasher and Scorpion wrecks for example).If hull burst before bulkhead then it will be filled with water in seconds and u will be dead before u realise what happened becose your inner pressure is much smaller then outside.Your lungs,heart,stomack will colapse in a splitsecond and u will be dead.
If u were the part of crew u will be sitting in dark,in some unusual upsidedown position all around of u will be that rumbling-creeking nose of hull under pressure and then "snap" in 1 milisecond u r dead..Very fast and very merciful death compared to drawning... |
Thinking about water pressure a great depth - it's mostly a force that works in the vertical direction (i.e. along the axis towards the center of the earth), right? I'm thinking that the boat would likely be crushed vertically rather than horizontally. Or, perhaps, because it is a loose fluid, the pressure is roughly equal on all sides. Think about sand - in sand the pressure would be mostly from above. I bet you there's a pressure gradient (Vertical/horizontal) that depends on the liquid viscosity. They might build pressure hulls with this in mind?
Kb |
I beg to differ... The HYDROSTATIC pressure is OMNIDIRECTIONAL, regardless of the objects orientation, size, speed, material etc. It is a force which acts equally on every point on the body (square inch if you have it). Hydrostatic pressure depends on the liquid density (water density is 1g/mililiter) and of course depth. |
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Keelbuster
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 263
Location: TO, ON
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| GreyOctober wrote: | | Keelbuster wrote: | | BigBadVuk wrote: | Most of the subs casualties are by implosion...U see a subs are build strong enought to withsand a lot of presure (btqw cylinder is a geometrical body with very high pressure tolerance)but at greater depths all bulkheads will colapsed all together in miliseconds interval becose of the so called domino effects: they r already well beyond their calculated stress and it is enought to just 1 of them colapse( i assumed that there is 1 or 2 ruptured compartments and that they r flooded so the pressure on the bulkheads are same as outside of hull) and cause sudden and agressive change of pressure to second 1 and then that one will colapse and so one...But like i sad usualy it takes miliseconds to happen and usualy boat is splited in 2-3 part(look at images of Trasher and Scorpion wrecks for example).If hull burst before bulkhead then it will be filled with water in seconds and u will be dead before u realise what happened becose your inner pressure is much smaller then outside.Your lungs,heart,stomack will colapse in a splitsecond and u will be dead.
If u were the part of crew u will be sitting in dark,in some unusual upsidedown position all around of u will be that rumbling-creeking nose of hull under pressure and then "snap" in 1 milisecond u r dead..Very fast and very merciful death compared to drawning... |
Thinking about water pressure a great depth - it's mostly a force that works in the vertical direction (i.e. along the axis towards the center of the earth), right? I'm thinking that the boat would likely be crushed vertically rather than horizontally. Or, perhaps, because it is a loose fluid, the pressure is roughly equal on all sides. Think about sand - in sand the pressure would be mostly from above. I bet you there's a pressure gradient (Vertical/horizontal) that depends on the liquid viscosity. They might build pressure hulls with this in mind?
Kb |
I beg to differ... The HYDROSTATIC pressure is OMNIDIRECTIONAL, regardless of the objects orientation, size, speed, material etc. It is a force which acts equally on every point on the body (square inch if you have it). Hydrostatic pressure depends on the liquid density (water density is 1g/mililiter) and of course depth. |
I thought about that - but since it is driven by the earth's gravitation pull - which is unidirectional, i expect there is a measureable gradient in that direction. It may be omnidirectional as an approximation (a rule of thumb) but wouldn't you expect to see a gradient? What about the sand example - would sand-pressure be omnidirectional? When building a mineshaft they have to support the ceiling more than the walls right? When a mineshaft collapses, the ceiling falls in, I would think.
Now - it may well be easier to build a pressure hull that can stand omnidirectional pressure - (like an eggshell) - building in an assymetry might weaken it overall. Maybs. I'm no engineer though.
Kb |
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jumpy
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 794
Location: Midlands, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I should imagine that under the circumstances of sudden and catostrophic implosion, quite a large amount of heat would also be generated in (what was left of) the submarine atmosphere (like you get pumping up a bicycle tire- the pump gets hot) and any crewmembers in said atmosphere would not only be subject to the intense and crushing pressure differential, but a rapid and extreme buildup of heat- a kind of 'compression ignition' of the air in the boat- something which would only last for a fraction of a second, but might actually do it for the crew before them being crushed to death?
I'm guessing some of that is at least possible if not wholely probable in such an event as a submarine implosion... yay discovery channel! |
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Keelbuster
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 263
Location: TO, ON
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| jumpy wrote: | I should imagine that under the circumstances of sudden and catostrophic implosion, quite a large amount of heat would also be generated in (what was left of) the submarine atmosphere (like you get pumping up a bicycle tire- the pump gets hot) and any crewmembers in said atmosphere would not only be subject to the intense and crushing pressure differential, but a rapid and extreme buildup of heat- a kind of 'compression ignition' of the air in the boat- something which would only last for a fraction of a second, but might actually do it for the crew before them being crushed to death?
I'm guessing some of that is at least possible if not wholely probable in such an event as a submarine implosion... yay discovery channel! |
I believe it - burn first, then crush, then drown, then be torn apart by fish. Sweird though - in movies with downed subs (i.e. abyss), the bodies are always intact. Chances are they would be pretty mashed.
Kb |
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Myxale
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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As for those who asked for the Hull- Well, i have it always hidden by the Commander!
I always say better off not knowin'!  |
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GreyOctober
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Keelbuster wrote: | I thought about that - but since it is driven by the earth's gravitation pull - which is unidirectional, i expect there is a measureable gradient in that direction. It may be omnidirectional as an approximation (a rule of thumb) but wouldn't you expect to see a gradient? What about the sand example - would sand-pressure be omnidirectional? When building a mineshaft they have to support the ceiling more than the walls right? When a mineshaft collapses, the ceiling falls in, I would think.
Now - it may well be easier to build a pressure hull that can stand omnidirectional pressure - (like an eggshell) - building in an assymetry might weaken it overall. Maybs. I'm no engineer though.
Kb |
Yes indeed, water has its own weight but due to its molecullar structure the pessure always exerts forces equally, perpendicullar to the surface of the submerged body. As for the sand example: Sand is not a liquid. It might flow but it has different physics. It becomes a fluid and gains fluid properties once mixed with water. As with the forces acting on a body burried in sand for example, the forces are omnidirectional but NOT equal and indeed the greatest force acting would be gravity.
The object with the best pressure tollerance is a sphere. Some of the modern ocean explorers have pressure hulls in form of a sphere. The cillinder has also a very good pressure tollerance and since WWI they had this shape. Remember that pressure difference occurs between a medium (water) and a cavity with a different pressure. There is no presure difference between water and lets say the external hull of the submarine for example.
| jumpy wrote: | I should imagine that under the circumstances of sudden and catostrophic implosion, quite a large amount of heat would also be generated in (what was left of) the submarine atmosphere (like you get pumping up a bicycle tire- the pump gets hot) and any crewmembers in said atmosphere would not only be subject to the intense and crushing pressure differential, but a rapid and extreme buildup of heat- a kind of 'compression ignition' of the air in the boat- something which would only last for a fraction of a second, but might actually do it for the crew before them being crushed to death?
I'm guessing some of that is at least possible if not wholely probable in such an event as a submarine implosion... yay discovery channel! |
No. Just a big bubble  The only heat would be that of the depthcharges.
| Keelbuster wrote: | | I believe it - burn first, then crush, then drown, then be torn apart by fish. Sweird though - in movies with downed subs (i.e. abyss), the bodies are always intact. Chances are they would be pretty mashed. |
Uhm, severe lung collapse,and one that is filled with water, presure equalizes and there nothing more to happen, untill the body gets sniffed out by a shark 
Cheers! |
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Keelbuster
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 263
Location: TO, ON
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| GreyOctober wrote: | | due to its molecullar structure the pessure always exerts forces equally |
this answer is vague; it doesn't contain enough information to aid your argument.
| GreyOctober wrote: | Sand is not a liquid. It might flow but it has different physics. It becomes a fluid and gains fluid properties once mixed with water.
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sand is approximately liquid - it's a group of particles in close contact - H20 are smaller particles. Sand is an extreme example to show that the direction of earth's pull with induce an asymmetry in 'pressure' that is exerted on the surface of a submerged body. It works for solids too - I have a feeling that's why the depths under earths crust form layers (of MAGMA moohaha). But they don't rule out 'omnidirectional' pressure. Finally, mixing sand with water is not relevant here.
| GreyOctober wrote: | As with the forces acting on a body burried in sand for example, the forces are omnidirectional but NOT equal and indeed the greatest force acting would be gravity.
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I think we need to lose the omnidirectional thing. Forces acting on the body in sand would be applied over its entire surface area, as it is in contact with particles on all sides. 'Omnidirectional' is vague. Gravity induces a gradient for an increased vertical force relative to the horizontal plane. Here we agree. But because i don't know why you see such a strong disanalogy between sand and water, i'm not sure why this doesn't convince you that at least _some_ measureable asymmetry in water pressure per surface area would be found associated with the vector that points away from the center of the earth. I'm really sure there is. There has to be. The question is how big it is. You seem to believe that it is negligible.
| GreyOctober wrote: |
The object with the best pressure tollerance is a sphere. Some of the modern ocean explorers have pressure hulls in form of a sphere. The cillinder has also a very good pressure tollerance and since WWI they had this shape. Remember that pressure difference occurs between a medium (water) and a cavity with a different pressure. There is no presure difference between water and lets say the external hull of the submarine for example.
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this part is fine with me. It's a little aside the main argument. I believe that the sphere is the best form to resist forces from all sides. That is because it is a shape with perfect symmetry. It is _also_ the best form to resist asymmetrical forces. But this is a (direct?) consequence of being optimal in the symmetric situation. Assymetrical forces are a subset of all forces that may be applied (someone please challenge this claim - i'm a little uncertain about it). The same can be said for the cylinder-like form used in the submarine (it is circular with respect to the XZ plane (where X is across the width of the sub and Z is up and down). The circle is optimal for resisting force applied at any point along its circumference, but also, (in?)directly as a consequence of being the best solution to this problem, the circle is also optimal for resisting asymmetrical forces (like earth's gravitational field).
I still disagree with you. You need to convince me that the disanalogy between sand and water is vicious. But even still I'm next to positive that there is an asymmetry in water pressure along the principal axes.
This is fun.
:know:
Kb |
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