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JScones
Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 1129
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| malcymalc wrote: | | I am enjoying this discussion very much (and i am glad to see it has not turned "flaming" yet). |
YET?!? LOL!
| malcymalc wrote: | | I am also finding that some mods which worked fine before (I liked the map with convoy routes shown, for instance) do not load with JSGME now (I see them available, move them across in the normal way but no change in the game). |
Mod compatibility problem perhaps? :hmm:
Wasn't there a typo in GW 1.1's menu_1024_768.ini file which meant that the convoy route map was ignored? Have you installed the subsequent mini-patch (sorry, I can't remember which of the GW threads it's on)? It might help...unless of course you're talking about something else altogether. |
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GlobalExplorer
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Stiebler wrote: | Von Helsching said:
| Quote: | | Can you please elaborate on the "uncritically every conceivable mod" part? |
I don't doubt that the GW team considered carefully (or critically) every alternative for every mod that was added to GW, and then selected the one they liked best. And we needn't argue about how one defines 'best'; we can all agree that sometimes judgements have to be made.
What troubles me is whether anyone asked critically if a mod had to be added at all. The much criticised sea-floor textures provide a good example. What purpose did they serve? Did anyone demand to have them? And - most important of all - how come they were not tested on a *standard* computer (meeting SH3 minimum specifications), instead only on a top-end computer? The problem must have been seen at once if tested with a standard computer.
Stiebler. |
I used the seafloor texture even before GW came out and they never caused problems. They look absolutely fantastic. What I don't understand is that they are allegedly causing such a fps hit, because without GW they ran fine on my system.
I cannot comment on testing policies but I think that GW definitely is too large. A week ago I started downloading it from an internet cafe and had to quit halfway. For a mod this large two separate gameplay/graphics packages are almost a must.
I will finally get to play it one day, but I don't think I can keep up if every patch is 400MB and upwards. Also keep in mind that with all this stuff ends up in memory, so the size adds to the fps problems. |
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GlobalExplorer
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: |
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To not completely miss the topic of this thread, here's my take on the situation as it stands today.
Ideally there should be:
- A basic community patch that adds all agreed gameplay fixes / features and serves as the base for all other mods. Ideally no more than 100-200 Mb
- Community expansions like GW that add another layer of graphics and content. 200 Mb and upwards
- A Modding API, that allows high level modding and mod merging through direct manipulations of all major ShIII files, developed as open source and provided as a dll, which can linked from many higher level languages.
- Wikipedia to all things modding Sh3, but only the important ones and no redundancy like in this forum.
Don't wonna sound like a prick but we also need a clear distinction between "modlets" and real mods. I wonder how many major initiatives have already been buried under the umpteenth highres banana texture mod.
GE |
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JScones
Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 1129
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| GlobalExplorer wrote: | | - A basic community patch that adds all agreed gameplay fixes / features and serves as the base for all other mods. Ideally no more than 100-200 Mb |
I'd agree with that. We need what we can all collectively call an unofficial v1.5 patch (I first said that months ago, before even IUB became a twinkle, but I don't have the scope to drive it). Bug fixes, accepted mods (decks awash and a few others come to mind) and innoculous changes all make it in. It then becomes the minimum SH3 running requirement. Gee, SH3 wouldn't be the first game to go down that path... But who's the brains trust that decides what's in and what's not? Do we open it up to all visitors to rank the top five (possible/existing) things they want in a patch? Get the heads of each major mod (RUb, IUB, NYGM, GW) to decide? A secret squirrel's club by the major modders? I'd be curious what the first approach would yield. Obviously, we all know of some of the fixes that *must* be included, but it would be good to crystalise a whole list.
| GlobalExplorer wrote: | | - A Modding API, that allows high level modding and mod merging through direct manipulations of all major ShIII files, developed as open source and provided as a dll, which can linked from many higher level languages. |
We had this discussion months ago...look how far we've gone... Basically unless:
a) a number of the developers are full time (which pretty much excludes every programmer that I know around this forum - we're all working on specific enhancement tools already plus working 9 to 5 jobs);
b) all developers agree on what language to use...and can use that language;
c) mod makers support the concept, get involved and "champion" the tool;
it ain't gonna happen.
Good idea though...but ain't gonna happen. SH3 just hasn't got the broad base of players to draw upon that other games (like Falcon 4.0) has.
| GlobalExplorer wrote: | | - Wikipedia to all things modding Sh3, but only the important ones and no redundancy like in this forum. |
Yes, for everyone to ignore, like the current Wiki we have. 
| GlobalExplorer wrote: | | I wonder how many major initiatives have already been buried under the umpteenth highres banana texture mod. |
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GlobalExplorer
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| JScones wrote: | | GlobalExplorer wrote: | | - A Modding API, that allows high level modding and mod merging through direct manipulations of all major ShIII files, developed as open source and provided as a dll, which can linked from many higher level languages. |
We had this discussion months ago...look how far we've gone... Basically unless:
a) a number of the developers are full time (which pretty much excludes every programmer that I know around this forum - we're all working on specific enhancement tools already plus working 9 to 5 jobs);
b) all developers agree on what language to use...and can use that language;
c) mod makers support the concept, get involved and "champion" the tool;
it ain't gonna happen.
Good idea though...but ain't gonna happen. SH3 just hasn't got the broad base of players to draw upon that other games (like Falcon 4.0) has.
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True, it ain't gonna happen. You know and I know how much work it would be, and it's not likely an unemployed programmer will show up and devote his life to modding SHIII. No.
But we must keep in mind that SHIV is on the horizon, and we have all learned.
If we keep the topic alive there might be a chance we have the structures in place before everybody starts working and the next flood of mods comes over us. That is, if SHIV is as moddable as SHIII, but I'd be surprised if wasn't. |
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JScones
Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 1129
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: |
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I believe SH4 will utilise SH3's core engine. Well, that's what I read somewhere anyway.
It might be a good time now for interested people (ie us) to get in contact with someone who can get in contact with the devs. Just to give us some basic ideas on what we can expect, so that we can get a head start on the game. |
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GlobalExplorer
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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I thought about sending them a summary of what I liked about SHIII as well as Sh3Gen's key concepts in the hope that some ideas might influence somebody. But I haven't found the time to write a document, and I don't know how to send it.
It would certainly have more impact if all major modders would collect their ideas / suggestions and send them through an intermediary. I'm sure the devs would be interested, and I think we should give them credit for releasing the "gaming surprise of 2005", at least for adult gamers with an interest in WWII. |
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Tonnage_Ace
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 260
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | GlobalExplorer wrote:
- Wikipedia to all things modding Sh3, but only the important ones and no redundancy like in this forum.
Yes, for everyone to ignore, like the current Wiki we have.
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I had to laugh at that observation, about once a month, without fail, someone makes a post asking how to manually target/shoot ships.
Pretty interesting subject you guys are bringing up in this post. Definitely, the great mod arms race is difficult to keep up with. I just finished reading all 11 pages of the SH3 Gen mod thread so I could brush up on all the quirks/problems I may face before I committed to downloading it. This is something I do mostly, before downloading a mod, although it's better to start reading a thread when it first begins, when the mod is released, thereby following it along as everyone finds/discusses/solves the problems there having. God help you if you just get into the middle of the discussion, like I did with SH3 Gen(thanks to Captain America who 'revived' that thread or else I wouldn't have found this great addition to SH3).
It would be naive to think that the devs or someone UBI has hired, to research what the SH3 community thinks about the game and how it could improve, aren't watching these forums. Market research I think they call it? Some formal document guiding UBI as to how they should go about making 'the best subsim ever' doesn't need to be written. I wouldn't doubt that the devs who are working on SHIV and play SH3 in their free time have many of the fantastic mods that are out there, installed on their systems.
I think we can all agree about one thing: an SDK released prior to(which is what Valve did before HL2, so the community could get a headstart) or after the launch of SHIV would make the game better and the community much more productive. |
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VonHelsching
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 666
Location: Athens, Greece
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Stiebler wrote: | Von Helsching said:
| Quote: | | Can you please elaborate on the "uncritically every conceivable mod" part? |
I don't doubt that the GW team considered carefully (or critically) every alternative for every mod that was added to GW, and then selected the one they liked best. And we needn't argue about how one defines 'best'; we can all agree that sometimes judgements have to be made. |
I agree. And about the "best" part, I think that "best" is what makes someone enjoy the game more 
| Stiebler wrote: |
What troubles me is whether anyone asked critically if a mod had to be added at all. The much criticised sea-floor textures provide a good example. What purpose did they serve? Did anyone demand to have them? And - most important of all - how come they were not tested on a *standard* computer (meeting SH3 minimum specifications), instead only on a top-end computer? The problem must have been seen at once if tested with a standard computer.
Stiebler. |
I understand. Maybe the seafloor was very heavy for some computers. BTW, you should see it; it's a work of art. Pitty that the modder Tanker IV is not around this game anymore.
But everyone is entitled to make mistakes. The GW team has given us - among other things - a unique graphical and sound environment that makes you feel that this is the next version of the game. Not that I do not appreciate all the teams of Rub, IuB, NYGM that have devoted their free time to give us users a "global" solution, specialised for every taste.
VonHelsching |
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malcymalc
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, I do not really care about SHIV (unless some of the ships or programming ideas could be imported into SHIII) because, frankly, the American submarine campaign in the Pacific leaves me cold.
I like being a Uboat commander strangling the lifeline to the poor plucky Brits etc (okay I know in reality they never came close but it is fun "glossing over" that minor detail) and there is plenty of life left in SHIII for me.
So I am hoping that a lot of the WIP gets finished before the shiny new programme is produced. If I had a "wants" list I think realistic torpedo performance would have to be way up there, the "Sabotage" mod sounds just my cup of tea if they can work out different problems for different years, and I would love to see better modelling of airpower (eagerly awaiting NYGM Coastal Command mod) not only for the Allies but German attacks on East Coast convoys would be fun (in fact I do not think I have seen an East Coast convoy).
Malcolm |
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Tonnage_Ace
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 260
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| malcymalc wrote: | | Actually, I do not really care about SHIV (unless some of the ships or programming ideas could be imported into SHIII) because, frankly, the American submarine campaign in the Pacific leaves me cold. |
I feel the same way, I like the fact that you start out sailing the friendly seas, sinking everything with impunity for years and being feared by many, then things start to go against you. But the Pacific campaign for the yanks might make a great career:
1. More action: they sank half of the Japanese merchant fleet(or limited the resource shipments to the extent that half of the merchant fleet was disabled by '45). That means there will be no shortage of things to sink and tonnage per patrol will probably be higher than a u-boat captain's because American subs had more firepower(6 tubes fore and 2 aft, plus plenty of guns on deck), plenty of range because their subs were bigger and had as much range as a IX boat.
2. Change of scenery: plenty of beautiful atols and tiny islands dot the south Pacific. More countries mean greater reliance on intel as to who is an ally and who is an enemy. Absolutely huge ocean, many different climates and places to go, much more varied than the Atlantic.
3. Seas are alive: with such a mix of islands apart from the mainland and so many different countries which rely on shipping, there will be plenty of different types, styles of ships to see/log/sink.
I think the devs have made a logical choice as to the next step the Silent Hunter series should take. |
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Seminole
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 644
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Mod Sanity |
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| Uber Gruber wrote: | I check in here every day and I have to say the work going on here is first rate!
I do however have one problem, I just cannot keep up with all the mods. Every night over the last two weeks i've been downloading mods, installing them, resolving conflicts, reinstalling them etc. This is why I loved the Grey Wolves and the NYGM Tonnage Mods, all inclusive and easy to install.
Just planting seeds...feel free to shout me down.
Cheers....  |
On the contrary...you have a brillant idea.
I have spent the last 2-3 weeks installing all the various combinations of mods and the supermods before I decide to launch into an involved career.
Even installing GW and Tonnage in a unified campaign combo ...though they always seem to work together ...no two combined versions seem to come out precisely the same way ...one has this recognition manual....another a different one. One has this set of map tools another install I get a different set. ect....ect....then I get to thinking did I forget to do something I should have or screw up the install.
About the time I think I am ready to begin a career something new pops up or I discover a must have mod that I missed....then it is install it and begin a new career ...or worse yet... screw things up so badly...I am forced to. 
How absolutely helpfull it would be to have a comprehensive mod manual/article uncluttered by questions and answers. |
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