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Kazuaki Shimazaki II
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
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 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Kapitan wrote: | K219 was one of 34 submarine's built, in total at the hight my records show as many as 91 nuclear ballistic missile submarines in service, with as many as 537 submarines in service all together at the hieght.
Hardly irreplacable. |
Precisely. It is 1 of 91. That's not too rare, but compare it with the crew. Over a million conscripts make it to military age every year... |
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tycho102
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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I have not specifically read about the K19 disaster. I have, of course, watched the movie. Please correct me (and forgive me) if I have made the wrong "factual" assumptions, based on the highly Hollywoodized movie:
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1. They sailed with chemical suits instead of lead/depleted-uranium lined radiation suits.
2. They pulled a steam leak on the coolant lines.
3. Soviet Russia radio'd the boat, and said, "KEEP THE REACTORS RUNNING, KOMRADES!!"
4. They sent men into the reactor with MIG/TIG welding tools, to fix the pipes.
5. With chemical suits. Into the reactor. To weld the water pipes.
6. You have got to be kidding me.
7. I mean it. With a critical reactor. Welding pipes. In chemical suits. You have got to be kidding me.
8. We are talking about 1 Sievert per minute. You're shaving off, in a manner of speaking, 10 years of your life per minute. So if you're twenty years old, you are done after 8 minutes. 10 minutes, and you are super duper well done.
9. Lethal radiation exposure is an absolutely terrible way to die. Those guys in the helicopters at Chernobyl were the bravest f*cking band of Russians I've even imagined. That gives me the willies just thinking about the courage those men had. I can't imagine the courage the K19 chief engineer had, knowing that he was done with his life, going in to inspect the repair work.
10. K19 seems like another series of absolutely perfect mistakes and incomptetence, like the Titanic and Apollo 13 disasters (as well as Chernobyl, CHRIST!). |
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TLAM Strike
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 4866
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| tycho102 wrote: | | 10. K19 seems like another series of absolutely perfect mistakes and incomptetence, like the Titanic and Apollo 13 disasters (as well as Chernobyl, CHRIST!). |
Apollo 13 a series of absolutely perfect mistakes and incompetence?!? One faulty part out of a thousand that worked beyond all expectations in the harshest environment yet encountered by humanity all thanks to arguably a group of the most intelligent and competent people ever assembled. You have got to be joking!  |
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tycho102
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TLAM Strike wrote: | | One faulty part out of a thousand that worked beyond all expectations in the harshest environment yet encountered by humanity all thanks to arguably a group of the most intelligent and competent people ever assembled. You have got to be joking! |
Do you mean the batteries that pooled hydrogen gas?
Do you mean the gauges that pegged at 80 degrees fahrenheit?
Do you mean the launch-pad voltage of 65, or the space craft's operating voltage of 24, which fused the oxygen tank's relay?
Do you mean the oxygen tank's accident, where it was dropped several meters?
Do you mean the pogo oscillation of the second stage, which caused an engine shutdown, which also just-so-happened to cause problems with a previous Apollo mission?
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To which faulty part are you referring?
Are you, metaphorically, referring to NASA as a faulty part? |
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JSLTIGER
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 931
Location: Duke University, Durham, North Carolina USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| tycho102 wrote: | | TLAM Strike wrote: | | One faulty part out of a thousand that worked beyond all expectations in the harshest environment yet encountered by humanity all thanks to arguably a group of the most intelligent and competent people ever assembled. You have got to be joking! |
Do you mean the batteries that pooled hydrogen gas?
Do you mean the gauges that pegged at 80 degrees fahrenheit?
Do you mean the launch-pad voltage of 65, or the space craft's operating voltage of 24, which fused the oxygen tank's relay?
Do you mean the oxygen tank's accident, where it was dropped several meters?
Do you mean the pogo oscillation of the second stage, which caused an engine shutdown, which also just-so-happened to cause problems with a previous Apollo mission?
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To which faulty part are you referring?
Are you, metaphorically, referring to NASA as a faulty part? |
1. The batteries were never meant to be used for extended periods of time, rendering the amount of hydrogen build-up minor.
2. The gauges pegged at 80F because the tanks were meant to be storing a substance THAT WAS ROUTINELY STORED AT -400+F.
3. The difference in voltage was something that switched mid-way through production. Should it have been accounted for? Absolutely. Is it hard to see why it was not? No.
4. Despite the drop, it sustained no external damage. Should it have been rechecked before being used on a spacecraft? Absolutely. When one is up against a deadline to put 363-foot tall rockets with MILLIONS of individual pieces together, one single component can easily be overlooked.
5. The POGO oscillation was detected by the onboard computer which shut down the number 5 engine. The other four burned slightly longer than planned to compensate for the lost thrust of the fifth engine. Regardless, at NO point did Apollo 13 ever deviate significantly enough from the accepted parameters of their launch trajectory to cause problems.
As for NASA being faulty, yes, it has its problems like anything else made by human beings, but I'd like to see you do it better.
Last edited by JSLTIGER on Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TLAM Strike
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 4866
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| All those small problems alone would not have caused a total disaster even two or three together would not have. Spacecraft are designed to operate with failures, 13 was just an example of 1 too many. |
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PeriscopeDepth
Joined: 07 Jul 2002
Posts: 515
Location: LoCal
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Kapitan wrote: | There are some issues in the film that never happend in real life, i mean where in gods name did that destroyer come from?
And no captain unless he had a death wish would run around the boat saying "they turned themselves into heros".
The film is typical american soviet history, reminds me of U571 |
Of course it's historically inaccurate, it's Hollywood!
PD  |
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Kapitan
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 5385
Location: essex england also st petersburg russia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: |
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this is answers to tyco
1) no evedence to support this although its more than likely true
2) IRL they weleded an extension pipe and flooded the reactor to which it cooled
3) the boat had no long range radio equipment because it had short cicuted so bad they could only send via emergency transmitter, all messages was sent via S270 |
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Wim Libaers
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 396
Location: Flanders
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| tycho102 wrote: |
1. They sailed with chemical suits instead of lead/depleted-uranium lined radiation suits. |
Seems reasonable. Radiation suits are very heavy and uncomfortable, and only useful for small sources (weak X-ray machines, small research samples of radioactive material). Offering protection good enough to survive an active reaction would not be practical if you're supposed to move or stand upright.
Chemical suits with masks can be useful in cases where the radiation is not very intense, but there's a lot of loose radioactive material. While they do not offer much protection against radiation, they prevent contamination of the skin and lungs.
| Quote: | 8. We are talking about 1 Sievert per minute. You're shaving off, in a manner of speaking, 10 years of your life per minute. So if you're twenty years old, you are done after 8 minutes. 10 minutes, and you are super duper well done.
9. Lethal radiation exposure is an absolutely terrible way to die. Those guys in the helicopters at Chernobyl were the bravest f*cking band of Russians I've even imagined. That gives me the willies just thinking about the courage those men had. I can't imagine the courage the K19 chief engineer had, knowing that he was done with his life, going in to inspect the repair work. |
I assume that, at least in the case of Chernobyl, they may not have been completely informed about the risks.
For effects:
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq5.html |
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Kapitan
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 5385
Location: essex england also st petersburg russia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Also i dont think you could compair chernobyl to K19, chernobyl was a full meltdown and was what 50 times the size of K19's reactor.
I think the world shoud learn that nuclear power can be safe if its used correctly, even countrys like britain and america are not immune from the dangers 3 mile island and sellafied good examples.
I live not far from a decommissioned nuclear plant in bradwell, and i do think that we in the future may have to turn and rely fully on nuclear power because the fossil fuels are deminishing fast. |
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JSLTIGER
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 931
Location: Duke University, Durham, North Carolina USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Kapitan wrote: | Also i dont think you could compair chernobyl to K19, chernobyl was a full meltdown and was what 50 times the size of K19's reactor.
I think the world shoud learn that nuclear power can be safe if its used correctly, even countrys like britain and america are not immune from the dangers 3 mile island and sellafied good examples.
I live not far from a decommissioned nuclear plant in bradwell, and i do think that we in the future may have to turn and rely fully on nuclear power because the fossil fuels are deminishing fast. |
I hate to break it to you, but we running on about 50 years of uranium...that's it. This can be extended to about 400 years IF we use breeder reactors. |
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Wim Libaers
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 396
Location: Flanders
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| JSLTIGER wrote: | | Kapitan wrote: | Also i dont think you could compair chernobyl to K19, chernobyl was a full meltdown and was what 50 times the size of K19's reactor.
I think the world shoud learn that nuclear power can be safe if its used correctly, even countrys like britain and america are not immune from the dangers 3 mile island and sellafied good examples.
I live not far from a decommissioned nuclear plant in bradwell, and i do think that we in the future may have to turn and rely fully on nuclear power because the fossil fuels are deminishing fast. |
I hate to break it to you, but we running on about 50 years of uranium...that's it. This can be extended to about 400 years IF we use breeder reactors. |
I've seen 1000 years for breeders, but that's assuming energy consumption levels remain equal. There are some other options (uranium from seawater, using thorium, getting the uranium and thorium from coal), but yes, with currect practices, the easily accessible nuclear fuel will not last long. |
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Kapitan
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 5385
Location: essex england also st petersburg russia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like America is going to be importing uranium from magadan then 
I wish have you seen the active mines in magadan? ive seen pictures and what not and they are huge like quareys. |
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The Noob
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 191
Location: Far Away
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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There is a Movie about K-19 in TV, is it Good?  |
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The Noob
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 191
Location: Far Away
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Ah, finally i got Rid of Bonnet... |
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