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Generals Want Rumsfeld to Resign
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August



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Rhode Island

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradclark1 wrote:
First let me make something clear. I don't know if the generals are right or wrong in their thinking. I was/am backing them in that if they think something is wrong and they felt strongly enough about it and they had the courage to speak up.........


These Generals opinions, all 8 of them (out of how many hundreds of retired Generals and Admirals?), do not, as far as i can tell, mirror the feelings of their respective services. As you say in a subsequent post, their ranks and retirements are secure. What courage are they displaying exactly?

Quote:
This stuff going on in the middle east proved that this thinking was a mistake.
This could be a thread all of it's own.


It proves only that with resistance come problems that are manifested in the field. Fast and lean is a valid and necessary goal to strive for. As much as we all like heavy forces, heck i was in 1st AD for three years, they are very difficult to move, require enormous amounts of taxpayer cash to keep outfitted, and are very difficult to keep supplied in the field. Where do you envision a use for things like the Crusader 155mm SPH? How do you intend to get them to the battlefield?

Quote:
This shows who's camp this guy is in.


Like the Generals are not?

Quote:
War plans are made for a reason. If "A" happens we go by this plan.
If "B" happens we go by this plan. Everything is planned and trained to support these missions. Seeing as I don't know what plan "A" was it's impossible to make a comparison.
If I was a betting man I would say that plan "A" had us reacting with a much larger force. The Army Chief of Staff that Rumsfeld fired was probably fired over this.


You can bet all you want but it's just unsupported speculation. For all we know those plans could have been totally unrealistic given the rapidly changing situation.

Quote:
No there is nothing sacred about them but a lot research and planning went into them. No plan is lock step but it serves as a template.


Quote:
Well, the Bush administration threw out years and years and layer upon layer of war planning on Afghanistan, improvised one of the leanest possible attack plans and achieved one of the more remarkable military victories in recent history. There's nothing sacred about on-the-shelf war plans.


Their was nothing remarkable about this action. A well organized modern fighting force went against a disorganized rabble. If I follow the news right the real battle is just going to begin now and I guess the UK forces are going to bear the brunt of it in the beginning.[/quote]

Real battle? I can see "second battle" but there was nothing fake about the initial invasion or the destruction of tora bora. Also "well organized modern fighting force" does imply the plans they had were pretty good.

Quote:
The sky is falling. The sky is falling said chicken little.


I didn't know Chicken Little was a retired US Army General. Is he the one who ran for president in the last election?

Quote:
This writer is unqualified to even write this kind of article.


Krauthammer has been around awhile. I don't agree with everything he writes about but neither would i reject anything he says out of hand either.
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bradclark1



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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Location: Connecticut, USA.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

August wrote:
These Generals opinions, all 8 of them (out of how many hundreds of retired Generals and Admirals?), do not, as far as i can tell, mirror the feelings of their respective services. As you say in a subsequent post, their ranks and retirements are secure. What courage are they displaying exactly?


Reread what I've said earlier.

Quote:
It proves only that with resistance come problems that are manifested in the field. Fast and lean is a valid and necessary goal to strive for. As much as we all like heavy forces, heck i was in 1st AD for three years, they are very difficult to move, require enormous amounts of taxpayer cash to keep outfitted, and are very difficult to keep supplied in the field. Where do you envision a use for things like the Crusader 155mm SPH? How do you intend to get them to the battlefield?


This could be a thread all of it's own. I'm not going to get into it here.

Quote:
This shows who's camp this guy is in.


Quote:
Like the Generals are not?

Are not what? I haven't read any articles the generals claim to be reporting on.
This article had one specific purpose and that was to put these generals down.

Quote:
War plans are made for a reason. If "A" happens we go by this plan.
If "B" happens we go by this plan. Everything is planned and trained to support these missions. Seeing as I don't know what plan "A" was it's impossible to make a comparison.
If I was a betting man I would say that plan "A" had us reacting with a much larger force. The Army Chief of Staff that Rumsfeld fired was probably fired over this.

You can bet all you want but it's just unsupported speculation. For all we know those plans could have been totally unrealistic given the rapidly changing situation.


Read the fifth sentence in that paragraph again.

Quote:
Real battle? I can see "second battle" but there was nothing fake about the initial invasion or the destruction of tora bora. Also "well organized modern fighting force" does imply the plans they had were pretty good.

This wasn't a battle. It was hard fighting. There is a difference.
This is my concept of battle: A general encounter between armies, ships of war, or aircraft.

Quote:
I didn't know Chicken Little was a retired US Army General. Is he the one who ran for president in the last election?

Well that hit the nail on the head seeing as you brought it up. Very Happy
It went from WMD's to bringing democracy to a country run by a dictator.
Bush "chicken littled" to get his foot in the door. But then there are about twenty threads on this particular subject and I don't think anyone has won yet.
Quote:
Krauthammer has been around awhile. I don't agree with everything he writes about but neither would i reject anything he says out of hand either.

I've been around for a while too and you won't see me writing articles about a subject I know nothing about. He should stick to writing about what he knows. So trust me you can reject this article out of hand.
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August



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Rhode Island

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradclark1 wrote:
I've been around for a while too and you won't see me writing articles about a subject I know nothing about. He should stick to writing about what he knows. So trust me you can reject this article out of hand.


Not to dismiss your advice but i'd rather trust the career military officer who sent me the article (and the previous one as well) and who said they were spot on.
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bradclark1



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go right ahead. A career military NCO isn't good enough for you? :hulk: Very Happy
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August



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Rhode Island

PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/bminiter/?id=110008284

Rage at Don
The war on Rumsfeld is really a bureaucratic turf battle.

BY BRENDAN MINITER
Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

"I think Director [of National Intelligence John] Negroponte has battles to fight within the bureaucracy, and particularly with the Department of Defense. DOD is refusing to recognize that the director of national intelligence is in charge of the intelligence community."--Sen. Susan Collins

On Sept. 10, 2001, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld held a town hall meeting at the Pentagon and identified what he saw as the gravest threat to national security: the Pentagon's own bureaucracy. "With brutal consistency, it stifles free thought and crushes new ideas. It disrupts the defense of the United States and places the lives of men and women in uniform at risk," he said. He may have underestimated both the size and tenacity of this foe.

In the opening pages of their new book about the Iraq war, "Cobra II," Michael R. Gordon and Gen. Bernard E. Trainor quote the Sept. 10 speech to frame the battle that has raged inside the Pentagon for five years. As the nation has weathered the most deadly terrorist attack on its soil in history, fought a global war on terror and liberated two countries, there has been a battle inside the Pentagon over the size, organization and weaponry of the U.S. military. And that battle has only intensified as the bureaucracy that Mr. Rumsfeld chastised for being stuck in a Cold War mindset has picked up allies in Congress, the military and in some quarters of the administration. It is this coalition that is now pushing for Mr. Rumsfeld to be fired.

But it's not just the defense secretary's head the former generals, anonymous leakers and senators are after. This is a classic Washington turf and policy war. In the balance is the nation's ability to fight the war on terror and confront other threats around the globe. One of the more significant theaters of this war has been waged in the intelligence community. Two years ago at the behest of the 9/11 Commission, Congress created the director of national intelligence to sit atop the CIA, FBI and other intelligence gathering agencies. In theory the DNI would improve the nation's ability to collect, analyze and disseminate information about national security threats. In this process Congress was cheered on by the Bush administration's normal critics in the media.

Initially the Bush administration resisted creating the new post, but as the 2004 presidential election approached Mr. Bush came out in support of it. A few members of Congress, however, put the breaks on for a few weeks. They included Rep. Duncan Hunter, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and Rep. John Kline of Minnesota, a relatively new arrival on Capitol Hill, who as a former Marine helicopter pilot had seen the need for good intelligence firsthand while carrying the "nuclear football" for President Reagan and while serving in Somalia in the 1990s. Before the legislation creating the new layer of bureaucracy was sent to the president to be signed into law shortly after the election, these few holdouts in the House won a critical battle for the military. They ensured that the Pentagon would not lose its ability to gather and analyze intelligence independently to support soldiers in harms way.

That victory, however, always depended on vigorous civilian control over a Pentagon that would rather not make enemies on Capitol Hill. That leadership starts with the defense secretary and also requires support from a president who understands that it's vital for the Pentagon to control its own intelligence assets. Sen. Collins, who led the fight in Congress against Reps. Hunter and Kline, has never accepted the powerful but limited role for the DNI. Instead she has continued to insist that Mr. Negroponte push to expand his mandate and gain total dominance over the intelligence community. This has come even as the New York Times and Washington Post have printed articles recently pointing out that the DNI has turned out to be--surprise, surprise--ineffective at creating more-accurate intelligence or even in turning out competing analysis that then filters up to policy makers. If anything, the creation of the DNI has made it less likely that members of Congress will receive anything but a consensus view from the intelligence community.

A recent House Intelligence Committee report puts its finger on the problem by saying the DNI is in danger of becoming "less an intended 'orchestration mechanism,' and more another layer of large, unintended and unnecessary bureaucracy." The committee is threatening to cut Mr. Negroponte's funding unless he comes up with a plan for reforming the intelligence community. But short of abolishing his own position, it's hard to see how that is possible.

It is in this context that we can view the criticism of Mr. Rumsfeld intensifying over the past year. The underlying theme from the handful of retired generals who have spoken out against the defense secretary to the critics on Capitol Hill and elsewhere is that Mr. Rumsfeld has been too forceful a leader at the Pentagon. Sen. Dick Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, wants to go so far as to hold a symbolic "no-confidence vote" on the defense secretary. "Let the Senate go on the record," he told reporters last week.

Unable to persuade the president from invading Iraq or to stop him from pushing for a more flexible military with an expanded role around the world, it seems the critics are now trying to throw sand in the gears of the military machine in the hope that it will grind to a halt. It's hard to see how this serves the national interest.

Mr. Miniter is assistant editor of OpinionJournal.com. His column appears Tuesdays.
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corvette k225



Joined: 07 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what six or eight, what about the other 1,800, what are they saying?

just a some old Clinton hold overs. Joking Joking
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August



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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Location: Rhode Island

PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.examiner.com/a-88357~Jed_Babbin__Keep_the_Big_Dog_running.html

Jed Babbin: Keep the Big Dog running

PDF | Email
Jed Babbin, The Examiner
Apr 25, 2006 7:00 AM (4 hrs ago)
WASHINGTON - Everyone is saying that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld’s days are numbered, thanks in part to increasing calls by some former generals for Rumsfeld’s resignation.

But Rumsfeld was hired by George W. Bush to do precisely what he has done to the consternation of the generals who are now coming out to complain about him.

When President Bush brought Rumsfeld back to the Pentagon, the president told him to shake up the Pentagon, to transform it from the Cold War structure and culture that it was stuck in to a new force with strategies that could respond to the post-Cold War world.

Months before Sept. 11, as Rumsfeld began the transformation of the Pentagon, he ran into contumacious obstructionism from the army and its then-Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki. Shinseki dug his heels in and refused to change much of anything about the Army. Shinseki went as far as to go behind Rumsfeld’s back to the Senate where his political mentor (and long-time family friend, Sen. Dan Inouye of Hawaii) and others backed his play.

But for the political cover Sen. Inouye gave Shinseki, he might have been fired then and there. Civilian control of the military means people such as Shinseki cannot be allowed to play the back-channel political games he played again and again. Shinseki stayed, and the Army went on to spend billions on the Stryker armored vehicle, a Cold War style peacekeeping vehicle that is too big and too heavy to be moved by a C-130 tactical airlifter without being partially disassembled.

And then came Sept. 11. The Secretary of Defense became the secretary of war and the transformation he had brought to the Pentagon had to be continued under fire. Still, the Army resisted.

Shinseki balked at striking at the Taliban. For the record, our forces slashed into the Taliban around Oct. 5, 2001, less than a month after Sept 11. But — aside from Rangers and Army Special Forces — the Army stayed home. Shinseki wanted at least six months to assemble and move an enormous Soviet-like force into Afghanistan and the president wasn’t having any of it. This is why Shinseki retired in 2003 with a festering grudge against Rumsfeld.

And then Rumsfeld did the unthinkable. Instead of replacing Shinseki with one of his like-minded underlings, Rumsfeld looked for someone who would fight. Gen. Peter Schoomaker, a Special Forces vet, was brought out of retirement to transform the Army in the middle of a war. And he did it. But in the process Rumsfeld, Schoomaker and his team shook up a lot of people.

Of the six who have called for Rumsfeld’s firing, all came to rank and prestige in the Clinton days, what some Pentagon wags now call the “Great Period of Neglect.” It was the era of “Blackhawk Down,” of Shinseki ordering the army to wear black berets and buying them from China and of Gen. Anthony Zinni, then commander of CENTCOM, becoming addicted to “stability” in the Middle East, entranced by the Arab leaders he’d come to know well. Stability meant leaving Saddam alone, so Zinni spoke often against the Iraq war before it began. Stability now means leaving Iran to pursue its nuclear weapons program undisturbed.

President Bush has made it clear that Rumsfeld has his confidence and that, in his judgment, it’s best for America that Rumsfeld stays. This will only result, sooner rather than later, in another political exercise — and that’s all the “generals’ revolt” is — to remove him. Mr. Bush’s opponents see Rumsfeld as vulnerable. They can’t rid themselves of George W. Bush, but they can damage him by damaging Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld is the Big Dog, and those whose feathers he has ruffled in the Pentagon, the press and Congress are the poodles who chase after him. They should follow the principle one Southern gent often reminds me of: If you can’t run with the big dog, you’d better go sit on the porch.
Jed Babbin is a former deputy under-secretary of defense and the author of “Inside the Asylum: Why the UN and Old Europe are Worse than You Think” and (with Edward Timperlake) “Showdown: Why China Wants War with the United States.” He is also a contributing editor at FamilySecurityMatters.org.
Examiner
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bradclark1



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jed Babbin served as a deputy undersecretary of defense in the George H.W. Bush administration.
Duuh! Does anything else need to be said? :hmm:
The guy has elephants on his pajamas and Miniter is his room mate. Try and do better. Rotfl
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The Avon Lady



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradclark1 wrote:
The guy has elephants on his pajamas

They're really not that bad looking, you know.

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August



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Rhode Island

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradclark1 wrote:
Jed Babbin served as a deputy undersecretary of defense in the George H.W. Bush administration.
Duuh! Does anything else need to be said? :hmm:
The guy has elephants on his pajamas and Miniter is his room mate. Try and do better. Rotfl


Yet you take the word of a former Democratic party candidate for President as gospel. Rolling Eyes

If it were up to guys like you our troops would still be armed with single shot blackpowder rifles and the Cavalry would still ride horses into battle. Both things the Generals had to be forced to let go of...
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bradclark1



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

August wrote:
Yet you take the word of a former Democratic party candidate for President as gospel. Rolling Eyes

Who would that be?

Quote:
If it were up to guys like you our troops would still be armed with single shot blackpowder rifles and the Cavalry would still ride horses into battle. Both things the Generals had to be forced to let go of...


No sir. What I believe in is that you stay prepared to handle any mission to the best of your ability.
Just because the latest fashion in fighting in some peoples eyes is light fighting doesn't mean that a heavier force is not going to be needed tomorrow. You must maintain a balanced force.
You don't use a sledge hammer to kill an ant and you don't use spit balls to drop a bull elephant.
America has been caught with it's pants down twice in it's history(WW2 and Korea). You want to shoot for three?
Call that old fashioned if you want. To me it's common sense.
It's just like the intelligence community. They depended on technology mostly and fell on it's arse. It takes a balance of humint and technology to make it work. The same goes for our military. You have to have a balance of force structure.
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August



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Rhode Island

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradclark1 wrote:
Who would that be?


Why, don't you keep up with the news? Wesley Clark has joined the generals revolt.

Quote:
No sir. What I believe in is that you stay prepared to handle any mission to the best of your ability.
Just because the latest fashion in fighting in some peoples eyes is light fighting doesn't mean that a heavier force is not going to be needed tomorrow. You must maintain a balanced force.
You don't use a sledge hammer to kill an ant and you don't use spit balls to drop a bull elephant.
America has been caught with it's pants down twice in it's history(WW2 and Korea). You want to shoot for three?
Call that old fashioned if you want. To me it's common sense.
It's just like the intelligence community. They depended on technology mostly and fell on it's arse. It takes a balance of humint and technology to make it work. The same goes for our military. You have to have a balance of force structure.


Fine theory, but unfortunately the truth is that America has been caught with it's pants down in the past precisely because of the defense establishments refusal to accept new realities in modern warfare. Look how long they held onto the battleship as the primary naval fighting weapon. Look what they did to Billy Mitchell for suggesting otherwise. As for Korea, it started just 5 years after the end of WW2. Just enough time for all those draftees and "duration" volunteers to have been returned to civilian life. Are you seriously suggesting we should have kept the WW2 troop levels, overseas, for that long?

Do i want to shoot for three? No, which is why i believe these very few generals are wrong.

Please don't insinuate that i think technology is a be all/end all of modern warfare, but as the last two US wars have shown us, a smaller but more modern equipped force can easily beat a much larger enemy force that's armed with obsolete weapons.

If you really want more "boots on the ground" then get your representatives to support the resumption of the draft because that's the ONLY way you're going to get the manpower you're advocating.
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bradclark1



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

August wrote:
Why, don't you keep up with the news? Wesley Clark has joined the generals revolt.

If you roll back a little to earlier comments you will see that I said I don't know if the generals are right or not. I have been saying that if they have come out like that there must be something to it and it bears looking at.
We all know Clark is a wannabe politician.
Quote:

Fine theory, but unfortunately the truth is that America has been caught with it's pants down in the past precisely because of the defense establishments refusal to accept new realities in modern warfare.

The pants were dropped in WW2 because our politicians kept the department of defence on a bare bones budget.

The pants were dropped in Korea because our politicians kept the department of defence on a bare bones budget. They went to Korea in summer uniforms and minimal equipment and supply.

Quote:
As for Korea, it started just 5 years after the end of WW2. Just enough time for all those draftees and "duration" volunteers to have been returned to civilian life. Are you seriously suggesting we should have kept the WW2 troop levels, overseas, for that long?

No they shouldn't have also been stripped down to nothing.

Quote:
Do i want to shoot for three? No, which is why i believe these very few generals are wrong.

How many generals do you think were involved in Iraq?

Quote:
Please don't insinuate that i think technology is a be all/end all of modern warfare, but as the last two US wars have shown us, a smaller but more modern equipped force can easily beat a much larger enemy force that's armed with obsolete weapons.

Yes they can win the battle but we can't hold the ground and we aren't winning the war. Why? Because we don't have the people to do it with!
Why? Because we wanted a smaller leaner force. Hello?
Quote:

If you really want more "boots on the ground" then get your representatives to support the resumption of the draft because that's the ONLY way you're going to get the manpower you're advocating.

Thats what happens when you chop your forces to the point they can't accomplish the mission.
These are our options:

1) Maintain the status quo and keep feeding the fodder and not getting anywhere because we don't have the manpower to do any more then what we are doing which is nothing but hanging on.

2)Because our force structure is is chopped past the fat and into the meat and the volunteers aren't volunteering anymore because they don't want to get killed, restart the draft. This one won't want to go into history for that. He will play weasel and pass it to the next president to make that decision.

3)Dump them and leave.

Do you have any other options?

You want to know what option we end up taking? Number 3


Last edited by bradclark1 on Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ducimus



Joined: 26 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

August wrote:
Fine theory, but unfortunately the truth is that America has been caught with it's pants down in the past precisely because of the defense establishments refusal to accept new realities in modern warfare


You know, after WW2, the general thought was conventional wars was a thing of the past with the advent of atomic weaponry, and the new reality it presented. So they downsized and scaled the US armed forces to fit that view. A view which did not fit the requirements of the Korean war.




August wrote:
If you really want more "boots on the ground" then get your representatives to support the resumption of the draft because that's the ONLY way you're going to get the manpower you're advocating.


We'll always need more boots on the ground. Given how many area's were acutally inivolved in. As for a draft, i'm split on that. On one hand , i feel it is EVERY CITIZENS duty to serve the country for 2 to 4 years. On the other hand, i dont want some dillweed watching my back who's some disgrunted shithead.

Personnally i dont think they're very far from a draft. If they've had to tap into the IRR, you can't scrape the manpower barrel any lower then that.
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August



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradclark1 wrote:
If you roll back a little to earlier comments you will see that I said I don't know if the generals are right or not. I have been saying that if they have come out like that there must be something to it and it bears looking at.
We all know Clark is a wannabe politician.


Yeah it was worth looking at last week, but it's obviously a case of sour grapes spurred on by the political opposition.

Quote:
The pants were dropped in WW2 because our politicians kept the department of defence on a bare bones budget.

The pants were dropped in Korea because our politicians kept the department of defence on a bare bones budget. They went to Korea in summer uniforms and minimal equipment and supply.


So what? You might as well add to that list; WW1, the Spanish-American war, the Civil war, the Mexican-American war, the war of 1812 and the Revolutionary war. In short we're a country that has always maintained a small standing military in peace time and have been slow to arm for war. The length of that peace has little to do with the eagerness of its citizens to shed their uniforms and get back to their interrupted civilian lives and families. Nor does it mean the politicians won't try to take advantage of the "peace dividend" (remember that term?). What you are asking is, as i have said, unrealistic. Our history proves it. Don't expect it to change.

Quote:
No they shouldn't have also been stripped down to nothing.


Again, a natural occurance found after every war in our history. Hard for a professional military man to understand, believe me i know, but there's no arguing with facts.


Quote:
How many generals do you think were involved in Iraq?


Offhand I can think of one who's opinion i'd take over all the others and thats Schwarzkopf's. Other than that i'll take the opinion of my field grade officer friend who is in a position to know.

Quote:
Yes they can win the battle but we can't hold the ground and we aren't winning the war. Why? Because we don't have the people to do it with!
Why? Because we wanted a smaller leaner force. Hello?

...

Thats what happens when you chop your forces to the point they can't accomplish the mission.


Our purpose isn't and never was to "hold ground" as an occupier of a sovereign nation. The Iraqis aren't a US vassal state and if you advocate we treat them that way then you haven't learned the lessons of Vietnam.

Quote:
These are our options:

1) Maintain the status quo and keep feeding the fodder and not getting anywhere because we don't have the manpower to do any more then what we are doing which is nothing but hanging on.

2)Because our force structure is is chopped past the fat and into the meat and the volunteers aren't volunteering anymore because they don't want to get killed, restart the draft. This one won't want to go into history for that. He will play weasel and pass it to the next president to make that decision.

3)Dump them and leave.

Do you have any other options?

You want to know what option we end up taking? Number 3


I see your options as inaccurate and your assesment of the choice being made as incorrect, barring of course a Democrat getting into office in a couple years and ensuring its failure by dismantling the gains that have been made.
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