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Deathblow
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 392
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 Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: Warning, Venting: Luftwolf > Sonalyst |
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Warning: Venting Frustation
How come one modding team working in their spare time, has proven more effective in fixing many of the bugs, shortcomings, and wishlist of the community than the actual developers whose real job is to do so.... what kindof sad sense does that make. And to top it off, the people that are supposed to be improving the product, but moving at a rate that would have me an old man before things are actually accomplished, are forbidding those that could probably do the job as quickly and nimbly from doing so... :hulk: Argh! Such as ball of frustration.
Sorry, my apologies, I just needed to vent that. Yes, yes I know, I know, the corporate world of gamemaking is ripe with snares and snags unappreciated by the layman gamer.... so yes I know that there's probably more to it than that.... BUT.... on the other hand, when I push $60bucks unrefundable for a product, then bugs and pushbacks just don't cut it. Pooh!
*sigh, venting over* |
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Kazuaki Shimazaki II
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Warning, Venting: Luftwolf > Sonalyst |
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| Deathblow wrote: | Warning: Venting Frustation
How come one modding team working in their spare time, has proven more effective in fixing many of the bugs, shortcomings, and wishlist of the community than the actual developers whose real job is to do so.... what kindof sad sense does that make. And to top it off, the people that are supposed to be improving the product, but moving at a rate that would have me an old man before things are actually accomplished, are forbidding those that could probably do the job as quickly and nimbly from doing so... :hulk: Argh! Such as ball of frustration. |
Actually, there is an informal division of labor involved. Sonalysts works on the basic theoretical models. Modders then make the best game possible out of each model.
This is good. The modders don't have the expertise to play around with the basic models (like the sonar propagation models) well. Sonalysts is both bound by secrecy regs (which bans them from confirming or denying even stuff that's already floating around outside) and they aren't players, so they don't know what we really want. So, why not split up the effort?
Their job is arguably harder than ours and thus takes longer. We play with text files - they play with the code itself, and to make it possible for us to modify the game using text files, the game has to include extra code for interpreting the text and a capacity for error correction to avoid the whole game crashing when one of the modders types an additional space or anything non-standard when entering his new doctrine. |
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Sea Demon
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Posts: 970
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Very good answer Kazuaki Shimazaki II. 
| Deathblow wrote: | | BUT.... on the other hand, when I push $60bucks unrefundable for a product, then bugs and pushbacks just don't cut it. Pooh! |
I was unaware that DW is perceived to have so many problems by anybody. I'm having no problem with the game at all. Even though I just posted my wishes for a more capable Harpoon Missile. I'm not minimzing Luftwolf and Amizaur and other modders here, but without Sonalysts these guys wouldn't have anything to mod. I'm just grateful to XabbaRus, Ramius, Luftwolf, Amizaur, etc.....for taking the time to improve an already kick-a$$ product.
Cheer up, Deathblow. Good things come to those who wait.  |
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Bellman
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1724
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Well said Sea Demon - I agree with all you have said.
We have a superb sim and the modders made it even better. Big thanks to all for working bl**dy hard
to make the game first class.   |
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Deathblow
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 392
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Warning: griping, don't read if you don't want to read griping.
| Sea Demon wrote: | | Cheer up, Deathblow. Good things come to those who wait. |
Nope, no it doesn't... not in capitalism anyway. You guys quit sucking up to the game designers. I'm frustrated about 2 things. One is that I hate the current patches physic model. The ascending and descending behaivor's just plain goofy, with the subs rising but then going nose down during the rise and then descending a bit before rising some more. The rising and diving rates are still borked; the boats still rise too fast (and actually gain 3-4 knots speed when ascending :dead: ) and dive too slow. If I could I would go back to the stock physics...
... however, because SCS was so kind to package the bug fixes with a goofy physics model you either have to chose no bugs with goofy physics or annoying bugs but original physics... and that to me is whack. Perhaps if we were able to tap into the engine itself and mess around with the behaviour (buoyancy, etc) we could figure it out (not that I myself could because I'm not a programmer, but collectively as a community), but noooooope, "don't fix the engine" "you have to live with what we give you".
The other is this indefinite hold on, again due to the "don't change the UI" rules, against new player models. The invariable "maybe" coupled with the ubiquitous "perhaps", always accompanied by the good old "possibly" wanting to perhaps one day in the future create one or two new player models for SCS to sale for profit. My experience with other games says that this means that either new playables will never ever happen (I predict about a 50/50 shot or less of ever getting any) or if we do its not going to be for another 3 or so years till actually available (by that time I'll be out of school and DW probably dusty on my hard-drive). The last game-manufacture that I followed hoping for the invariable "someday" had a entire game community waiting for 3 years for features promised before the game was even released.... and they are still waiting and the manufacturers are still promising! Ugh!
Could they be made ourselves, yep, but nooooo don't do anything because SCS *might* could have, sorta, maybe probably, possibly one day in the year 2009 could perhaps sorta maybe want to put out 1 new model............... whoopty doo.
To top it off, things that the community request take so long to accomplish, that its up to persons like LW&A to take things into their own hands to accomplish them before the next presidential election... and request like better FFG helo control, better wire-torp options, launch transits still out of reach and likely to be indefinately ignored.... not that it might be possible to provide from a particulatly motivated and talented modder, but oh wait that's right... don't touch the engine.
So I'm sorry, I'm usually not one to complain... much... but no, I'm not impressed. I'm a gamer, I demand more |
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OKO
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 468
Location: Solar system, mainly on earth
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Deathblow, this simulation is definitly not for you, you just understand nothing the way it was made and actually developped.
There is NO COMPANY that follow their productions years after the release.
On what you said, you need some easy and fast game like quake, but certainly not a simulation like DW.
So, just move out, and stop moaning here, we don't care about your opinion on a subject you don't understand.
bye bye |
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Molon Labe
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 1052
Location: Bloomington, IN, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| No need to be that harsh on him. This thread has been labeled as a venting thread, and those are all legit gripes. (Although the reasons for not allowing PCU have more to do with the profitability of military versions of the game engine, not to preserve the profit of any expansion pack) |
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OneShot
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 704
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: |
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As far as the gripes about the physics modell go I think its continually going forward instead backwards ... unfortunatly other things haven't kept up with that, most notably the planesmen/trim on the sub. I'm just reading a book about subs (written by a british Rear Admiral) and some of the comments about sub behaviour can actually be found in the game, like for example the sub behaving under water and at and above certain speeds like a plane going through air, or the results of using hard rudder at higher speeds. The only problem as mentioned above is that other parts do not work like they should.
So on my end I do see a number of bugs, but most of them have been introduced after other parts of the game have been improved and then mostly as a result because the former "balance" was disturbed.
Still aside from all the bugs, I think that DW as it is now (1.03) is a pretty stable and playable game which offers a lot of fun. Only restriction is to not go down certain paths at the moment or at least know your way around, i.e. when doing certain maneuvers it is not wise to have the TA streamed to full length.
Yes this is not perfect, but then what is ... |
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Pirate
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 407
Location: Oeiras, PORTUGAL
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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I totally comprehend Deathblow's frustrations about this game!
I myself shared some of them...
This game has been released with enoumerous bugs, this is not big problem as all software has many bugs on it's first release, but development team takes months to address the bugs, and when they do, for surprise of all... new bugs are introduced. :down:
This slowness in supporting this product and introduction of new ones easaly detected on same exact day of the released patches, takes me to think that they really do not care much about it.... and reminds me something that Jsteed said a year ago about this product becoming abandonware. 
We are now more than one year after the game was released and have this phisics bug that even a 12 year old would notice first time he would play. lol
I like the game, i really like it!!! But cannot comprehend the lack of attention from developers in addressing the product problems.
Just my opinion... hope no one takes the wrong way! |
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LuftWolf
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1872
Location: Free New York
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This game has been released with enoumerous bugs, this is not big problem as all software has many bugs on it's first release, but development team takes months to address the bugs, and when they do, for surprise of all... new bugs are introduced. |
Not nearly as many bugs as far less ambitous pieces of software that go retail.
DW is the first simulation of its kind for two important reasons: 1) multistation 2) playable combined arms in a single battlespace
I think its asinine to expect better, even if this game had been developed by a major house, which of course is impossible for reasons we all know.
| Quote: | | This slowness in supporting this product and introduction of new ones easaly detected on same exact day of the released patches, takes me to think that they really do not care much about it.... and reminds me something that Jsteed said a year ago about this product becoming abandonware. |
This is quite wrong for reasons that I'm not going to enumerate.
In any case, I'd say the basic platform in DW has a 10-20 year lifespan for certain customers, once it is fully developed. |
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MaHuJa
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 447
Location: 59.96156N 11.02255E
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LuftWolf wrote: | | 2) playable combined arms in a single battlespace |
... what happened to Operation flashpoint? |
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Bellman
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1724
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Flashpoint was a great game - some flaws/glitches yes but light years ahead of competition at the time (IMO)
Spent many glorious hours in that world a few years ago.  \ |
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LuftWolf
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1872
Location: Free New York
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: |
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My world stops at the doorstep of the consoles.  |
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goldorak
Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 393
Location: Milano,Italy
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| LuftWolf wrote: | | My world stops at the doorstep of the consoles. |
:gulp: :gulp:
Operation Flashpoint is a pc game Luftwolf. |
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Deathblow
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 392
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| OKO wrote: | Deathblow, this simulation is definitly not for you, you just understand nothing the way it was made and actually developped.
There is NO COMPANY that follow their productions years after the release.
On what you said, you need some easy and fast game like quake, but certainly not a simulation like DW.
So, just move out, and stop moaning here, we don't care about your opinion on a subject you don't understand.
bye bye |
OKO those comments don't even make sense. I've got an idea, why don't *you* stop playing simulations? You should go play...ummm... Mario Bros! Yeah, thats it...Mario Bros.
If you don't care to read my opinion don't read it Einstein! 
kthxbye
| OneShot wrote: | As far as the gripes about the physics modell go I think its continually going forward instead backwards ... unfortunatly other things haven't kept up with that, most notably the planesmen/trim on the sub. I'm just reading a book about subs (written by a british Rear Admiral) and some of the comments about sub behaviour can actually be found in the game, like for example the sub behaving under water and at and above certain speeds like a plane going through air, or the results of using hard rudder at higher speeds. The only problem as mentioned above is that other parts do not work like they should.
So on my end I do see a number of bugs, but most of them have been introduced after other parts of the game have been improved and then mostly as a result because the former "balance" was disturbed.
Still aside from all the bugs, I think that DW as it is now (1.03) is a pretty stable and playable game which offers a lot of fun. Only restriction is to not go down certain paths at the moment or at least know your way around, i.e. when doing certain maneuvers it is not wise to have the TA streamed to full length.
Yes this is not perfect, but then what is ... |
I agree with you alot. I'm just venting frustation. So close to the perfect game, but yet soooooooooooooo far!! Argh! 
Edit: ok, done griping for now... I just had to expression some frustrations, will try to keep it positive from now on.
Last edited by Deathblow on Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:04 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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