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Kurushio
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 14
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 Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: Realistic modern sub tactic? |
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Is this scenario realistic?
Your target is a civilian surface vessel being escorted by one warship. There is civilian traffic close to your target. You only have one chance at a shot. At this point...do you raise the periscope and use that for targetting? Or do you still use TMA? Bear in mind, there is a small chance of the enemy spotting the periscope....though you know that as the sole escort, he wont be too bothered about hunting you and leaving his escort, unless you fire off a fish.
So would using the periscope (WW2 style) in this situation be realistic....? |
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Bill Nichols
Joined: 14 Mar 2001
Posts: 2657
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Periscope. Definitely. Since you already know what direction to look (you did say you were doing TMA on the target), you need only put the scope up a couple of seconds to get a visual range, angle-on-the-bow and positive ID. |
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Kurushio
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'm still stuck on the SH3 way of thinking...hard to swallow that the periscope is nothing more than a viewing device on a modern sub...not an actual targetting device.  Just feels very blind when firing from TMA...especially when you have to be accurate like in this case. Maybe it's cos I don't trust my TMA skills yet.  |
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TLAM Strike
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 4866
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| IIRC the HMS Conquer’s attack on the ARA General Belgrano was conducted using periscope observations (Sonar tagged them 1st though). So ya using the scope is realistic (it been done IRL!) |
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Henson
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Kurushio wrote: | | I'm still stuck on the SH3 way of thinking...hard to swallow that the periscope is nothing more than a viewing device on a modern sub...not an actual targetting device. |
Ummm....you might be surprised.
All we can get from passive sonar is bearing and bearing rate. From the scope we get bearing and range...it's almost as good as radar when it's utliized correctly. If I was a sub skipper I'd use the scope every time. |
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Camie Jarlson
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 6
Location: In the ASTAC station
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Henson wrote: |
All we can get from passive sonar is bearing and bearing rate. From the scope we get bearing and range...it's almost as good as radar when it's utliized correctly.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm new to this, :8
But I thought we were able to use passive sonar for ship identification in Narrow Band signatures also. Isn't that useful enough, so that you won't have to raise the periscope for positive ID at all? |
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Kurushio
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Aha...so it is done in RL? That's good to hear....though is the periscope slaved to the firing computer? Or do you have to get the bearing on periscope, then change screen and input the bearing as a "snapshot"? Last time I tried it...I was looking at a bearing of 150 through the persicope, fired snapshot and the fish headed due south?? :hmm: |
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Molon Labe
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 1052
Location: Bloomington, IN, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Camie Jarlson wrote: | | Henson wrote: |
All we can get from passive sonar is bearing and bearing rate. From the scope we get bearing and range...it's almost as good as radar when it's utliized correctly.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm new to this, :8
But I thought we were able to use passive sonar for ship identification in Narrow Band signatures also. Isn't that useful enough, so that you won't have to raise the periscope for positive ID at all? |
You certainly can detect, classify, and localize a target with enough accuracy to attack using only passive sonar. But, if you have the ability to get a range and course with the periscope nearly instantaneously, why not use it? Mistakes are costly; better to use the best tools you have when you can. |
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Molon Labe
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 1052
Location: Bloomington, IN, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Kurushio wrote: | | Aha...so it is done in RL? That's good to hear....though is the periscope slaved to the firing computer? Or do you have to get the bearing on periscope, then change screen and input the bearing as a "snapshot"? Last time I tried it...I was looking at a bearing of 150 through the persicope, fired snapshot and the fish headed due south?? :hmm: |
Snapshot bearings are set manually in fire control. |
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Camie Jarlson
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 6
Location: In the ASTAC station
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess your right Molon Labe. I was just wondering if this was a possibility because I thought that's what I read in the game's manual. Thanx. |
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SeaQueen
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 358
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Camie Jarlson wrote: |
But I thought we were able to use passive sonar for ship identification in Narrow Band signatures also. Isn't that useful enough, so that you won't have to raise the periscope for positive ID at all? |
Maybe. The presence of other shiping in the area muddies the issue, though. There's a chance that his signature might be obscured by intervening traffic, or that you might confuse one target for another of a similar type. Also, depending on the acoustics, you might not be able to get enough tonals to really make that guess with enough confidence to shoot. There's also the fact that associated with one's firing solution there's always an area of uncertainty, which might be quite substantial.
One COULD make the shot just using their sonar, but it'd probably be better just to quickly make one check on the periscope before shooting. |
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compressioncut
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 238
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Henson wrote: | | Kurushio wrote: | | I'm still stuck on the SH3 way of thinking...hard to swallow that the periscope is nothing more than a viewing device on a modern sub...not an actual targetting device. |
Ummm....you might be surprised.
All we can get from passive sonar is bearing and bearing rate. From the scope we get bearing and range...it's almost as good as radar when it's utliized correctly. If I was a sub skipper I'd use the scope every time. |
RISER, Bearing 213! Riser gone sinker, bearing 213. Dip gang, riser gone sinker bearing 213, range 4 from [own ship], time late zero.
Periscopes are radar detectable in real life, but unfortunately not in the game. Real dangerous against a modern surface search radar.
Passive sonar gives range, course, and speed of the target, using bearing, bearing rate, and doppler shift. The scope is obviously faster, though, although I've seen some pretty accurate WAGs in TMA. |
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LuftWolf
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1872
Location: Free New York
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Kurushio wrote: | | Aha...so it is done in RL? That's good to hear....though is the periscope slaved to the firing computer? :hmm: |
Yes it is.
You can "Mark" the contact on the scope when you are looking at it as well as take a picture for use on the Stadimeter. The bearing is transmitted to the fire control and tma computers in a V# track. You can then lower the scope and use the statimeter to get posID and range, which you can then enter into the fire control/tma and the V# track will have bearing, range, and ID information recorded for it.
If you then merge it with your passive sonar contact, you will have the contact you have been tracking and doing TMA on merged with your visual information, at which point you can recalculate your TMA with the visual information to be very sure of your solution, now having reliable range, bearing, and speed information, or fire on the bearing and range information from the V# contact generated when you marked the contact at the periscope without redoing the TMA if you need to shoot quickly. |
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TopTorp '92
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 329
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Realistic modern sub tactic? |
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| Kurushio wrote: | Is this scenario realistic?
Your target is a civilian surface vessel being escorted by one warship. There is civilian traffic close to your target. You only have one chance at a shot. At this point...do you raise the periscope and use that for targetting? Or do you still use TMA? Bear in mind, there is a small chance of the enemy spotting the periscope....though you know that as the sole escort, he wont be too bothered about hunting you and leaving his escort, unless you fire off a fish.
So would using the periscope (WW2 style) in this situation be realistic....? |
Any Commanding Officer (and most Fire Controlmen) know that the persicope must be used to make ID on the intended surface target.
Also, depending on the vicinity of civilian traffic to the target, the CO may decide to avoid the attack altogether.
It is possible to fire using acoustic mode off. That way the torpedo cannot home to the wrong target. Problem is that we never trained to shoot a moving target without accoustics. Only time we ever trained to shoot without accoustics was for a DIW or at anchor. |
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Kapitan
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 5385
Location: essex england also st petersburg russia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: |
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id personaly use exactly the same as what bill suggested.
But as TLAM said the conquorer used its periscope although not as TLAM said but close.
Conquorer used sprint drift tactic go deep for a while listen on sonar pop up then back down it was only till the order to fire came. |
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