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Hitman
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3059
Location: Spain
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 Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject: Torpedo firing in WW1 |
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As far as I know, in WW1 the torpedo data computer did not exist, so the U-Boot commander had to calculate firing solutions and gyro angles by himself, is that correct? But were the WW1 torpedos able to turn once shot, and if so, how was it calculated what they should turn?
Can someone explain a bit what torpedoes could do and how they were fired in WW1 U-Boots? :huh: |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Torpedo firing in WW1 |
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| Hitman wrote: | | As far as I know, in WW1 the torpedo data computer did not exist, so the U-Boot commander had to calculate firing solutions and gyro angles by himself, is that correct? |
NO
| Quote: | | But were the WW1 torpedos able to turn once shot, |
Yes.
| Quote: | | and if so, how was it calculated what they should turn? |
Via TDC 
Not a mechanical one like in WWII but consisting of sliderullers similar to the torpedodirector on Tones video.
| Quote: | | Can someone explain a bit what torpedoes could do |
You couldn't talk to them but they could blow up things !!! 
Or are you talking here about Torpedosettings ?
Well, angle shots +-90° and AFAIK depth and speed settings.
| Quote: | | and how they were fired in WW1 U-Boots? :huh: |
With pressurized air out of torpedotubes !
Deamon |
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Hitman
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3059
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Via TDC
Not a mechanical one like in WWII but consisting of sliderullers similar to the torpedodirector on Tones video.
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So the gyro angle was calculated with sliding rules and then programmed manually in the torpedo before firing :hmm: Interesting...so the WW2 TDC just substituted those rulers with a more precise tool, and that is all?
I have read that WW1 commanders fired at about 500 metres, nearly never more than 1000 metres because of the high chances of missing, which were also increased with high angles to target... 
| Quote: | Well, angle shots +-90° and AFAIK depth and speed settings.
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But this was not very common, right? I mean, shooting a target that forced the torpedo to do a heavy turn once shot :hmm: |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Hitman wrote: | | So the gyro angle was calculated with sliding rules and then programmed manually in the torpedo before firing :hmm: Interesting... |
In my understanding it's not exactly the gyro angle what it calculates but the lead angle, that is the course you must drive for a straight shot. If you are not at that couse then you must add/subtract the difference of the actualy course to the lead angle in your head and this difference is the gyro angle. But i had no time so fare to deal with them in depth cose i have so much other things to do right now.
| Quote: | | so the WW2 TDC just substituted those rulers with a more precise tool, and that is all? |
So to say. But i think the WWII TDC was also made to follow a target, while with the slideruller you calculate only the moment of the shot and have to adjust by hand if neccessery. I'm not a WWII expert right now but wasn't it possible in WWII to transmit the gyroangle and other settings via TDC ?
| Quote: | | I have read that WW1 commanders fired at about 500 metres, |
Well, the standart attack distance was 300m. The u-boat would run on the same course as the target and let the target overtake it or it would run the opposit course and then in both cases turn in 90° angle to the target and fire at 300m. That challange was to turn in the right moment or you might come to close or be further away then this distance.
The problem was that the torpedos had a bubble wake and that was a good reason to shot from as close as possible cose in calm seas and with good observers the target might have detected the torpedo wake to early and evaded successfully. Also the earlier torpedos had a steering error of 2° the latest torpedo G7 had an steering error of only 1°. You can figure why it was better to shot from a closer distance with the pre G7 torpedos.
| Quote: | | nearly never more than 1000 metres because of the high chances of missing, which were also increased with high angles to target... |
Well, most shots were surely below 1000 meters. I just finished the story about an Commander who commanded an UBII and later an UBIII in the med. He seem to have shot often above 1000 meters, up to 1800 meters. And always scored good hits. Can't remember right now how the other did it. Later i will make impirical statistics, then you will see.
| Quote: | | But this was not very common, right? I mean, shooting a target that forced the torpedo to do a heavy turn once shot :hmm: |
Yes it was rather an exception. |
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2019
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 596
Location: Polish dude in Amsterdam
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I just finished the story about an Commander who commanded an UBII and later an UBIII in the med. |
Which story?
can you forward it to me please? |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: |
Which story?
can you forward it to me please? |
Lol Sorry it's a book in german called "Ubootsgeist" what mean "u-boat spirit". Published 1935.
The Commander was one of the aces, surviving the entire war. It was the one who made this successfull long range shots, always made it through the straight of otranto, escaped with the whole crew and damaged u-boat after they were detained in spain, knocked out land batteries with the deck gun, ripped convoys in pieces and always fooled and shaked off the DD's even under worsed wabo attacks.
This boat was one of the few survivors in the med.
Deamon |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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BTW: The technology on u-boats in WWI wasn't that primitive as many seem to think.
EDIT: It started primitive but evolved very quickely. That means a WWI campaign offers many new inventions and always changing game play. |
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DAB
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 158
Location: Aberystwyth, Wales
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: |
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My understanding is that on British boats in 1939, the technology was still at 1918 levels....
...I imagine that it was simular for the German U-boats? |
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Floater
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 2300
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| DAB wrote: | My understanding is that on British boats in 1939, the technology was still at 1918 levels....
...I imagine that it was simular for the German U-boats? |
Not at all. There was a lot of development going on in Germany between the wars, including (but not limited to) the creation of the Type VII class of boats, which were the most numerous throughout WWII. |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DAB wrote: | | My understanding is that on British boats in 1939, the technology was still at 1918 levels.... |
I'm not an expert on british subs but...
| Quote: | | ...I imagine that it was simular for the German U-boats? |
...as Floater said there was alot of developement in germany. After WWI the german constructors moved to other countries and continued to refine the u-boat design. Later they returned to the Reich again and continued the developement, especialy after Hitler came to power and started the comprehensive armament again.
Deamon |
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DAB
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 158
Location: Aberystwyth, Wales
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I should have clarified. I was making a reference to Targeting of torpedos, rather then general technology levels. Both the United States and Germany between the wars developed a targeting computer (TDC) for its submarines.
My Understanding is that the British didn't develop such a system - or at least were not using such a system till much later in ww2 |
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Redwine
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 1143
Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all..... i remember i read in some place .....
First torpedoes with giro angle input had a very anoying method to input this error signal.
The first to have this features need a crew inserting this data using a tool by a side port on tha back section of the torpedo tube, after the giro was energized and stabilized.
A second later method eliminates the port in the tube and the use of the tool, and the giro error signal was induced by some kind of sincronic motor from the outside the tube.
Later this was done by the TDC.
I made a compilation of early torpedoes in my Subgenesis, sadly it was put of the web by the server operator, i dont upload it another time, because i need to have time to add 4 old XIX Century subs more.
I will update it soon.
The calculations in that age was done all manually with the help of sliding and rotating rulers.
Very interesting, you can see a complete manual shooting calculations at my signature.
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Redwine wrote: | Hi all..... i remember i read in some place .....
First torpedoes with giro angle input had a very anoying method to input this error signal.
The first to have this features need a crew inserting this data using a tool by a side port on tha back section of the torpedo tube, after the giro was energized and stabilized.
A second later method eliminates the port in the tube and the use of the tool, and the giro error signal was induced by some kind of sincronic motor from the outside the tube. |
Are you talking about german torpedos in particular ?
| Quote: | | I made a compilation of early torpedoes in my Subgenesis, sadly it was put of the web by the server operator, i dont upload it another time, because i need to have time to add 4 old XIX Century subs more. |
Can you also send it to me ?
| Quote: | | The calculations in that age was done all manually with the help of sliding and rotating rulers. |
Right
| Quote: | | Very interesting, you can see a complete manual shooting calculations at my signature. |
Cool stuff. All made by your self ?
Deamon |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Redwine wrote: | | First torpedoes with giro angle input had a very anoying method to input this error signal. |
Were the gyro angle settings called error signals ?
Why error ? |
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Redwine
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 1143
Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Deamon wrote: |
| Redwine wrote: | Hi all..... i remember i read in some place .....
First torpedoes with giro angle input had a very anoying method to input this error signal.
The first to have this features need a crew inserting this data using a tool by a side port on tha back section of the torpedo tube, after the giro was energized and stabilized.
A second later method eliminates the port in the tube and the use of the tool, and the giro error signal was induced by some kind of sincronic motor from the outside the tube. |
Are you talking about german torpedos in particular ? |
Not remember if they was just germans, but i think so all naval forces was with similar advances, sure germans start up in that way too.
| Deamon wrote: |
| Quote: | | I made a compilation of early torpedoes in my Subgenesis, sadly it was put of the web by the server operator, i dont upload it another time, because i need to have time to add 4 old XIX Century subs more. |
Can you also send it to me ? |
Yes i can, but checked and that info is not there, i read that info during my investigation about early sub and early torpedoes. May be i have it stored, because i arrive at 1900 in my history, not beyond.
The complete site is big, anyway i can send the 3 chapters about early torpedoes if you want, but they are from 1865/1900.
I will upload the complete site a new time when have time to add 4 subs i have not worked yet.
| Deamon wrote: |
| Quote: | | Very interesting, you can see a complete manual shooting calculations at my signature. |
Cool stuff. All made by your self ?
Deamon |
Yes, take a lot of job, i need to rework the game, make the mod and plus made that tutorial wich is a complete guide to manual shooting.
| Deamon wrote: | | Redwine wrote: | | First torpedoes with giro angle input had a very anoying method to input this error signal. |
Were the gyro angle settings called error signals ?
Why error ? |
May a language mode, when you input the signal for giro angle, you make a perturbation of the stability of the system.
The system attempt to correct this perturbation or “error” and return to the stabilized zero “error”.
How the system attempt to correct or eliminates this induced chage, we can call it "error", because it is to be "fixed" or eliminated.
So you put the new zero condition into a new position, then the torp will turn up to reduce it error to zero, this happens when it reach the new course or new zero condition.
In early time i soupose it was mechanical, later the torps used syncronic motors and servos to actuate rudder.
Syncronic motors are a kind of twin motor, we call here some times, “motor of error” where the rotor is ino a stator with 3 coils separated 120degrees, wich generated a stable position of the rotor. Both rotors and both staors are conected.
The position of the first rotor is duplicated by the second rotor, If you move the rotor 1, the rotor 2 make the same.
It was used to duplicate a position, in example the tool to inpit this signal was abandoned, and this kind of motors was used to input electrically the giro angle.
You turn a knob atached to a motor 30 degrees and it turn a motor into the torpedo same 30 degrees wich turns the giro.
This kind of motors are used to repoduce in example a rudder or dive plane position into an instrument.
Not a scientist explanation but there are not too much information about those early systems, specially those mechanicals and with servo asustance, may be due they was war secrets in those days. |
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