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subwulf
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 31
Location: Switzerland
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 Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: What makes a WWI UBoat-Sim interesting? |
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hi all
some days before, i heard the first time from this amazing project. And i am really happy about these news. but what makes a WWI subsim so interesting?
- There was no way for the destroyers to find a dived uboat
- It was very difficult to trim and handle a dived uboat. being on the exact periscope depth depended more from luck than from the skill of the uboat-crew
- The uboats were only for a short time (compared with wwii) on sea and had only few torpedos with them.
of course, the german uboats during wwi were very effective and a lot of ships sunk by them. but in regarding forward to this uboat-sim: playing a subsim where the result of a battle depends more on luck than on skill or what ever, that's quite boring, isn't it?
but of course i don't want to say that this project is bad. of course not. i am only wondering me whats so fascinating on the uboat-war during wwi?
best
subwulf |
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Seeteufel
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Hamburg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What makes a WWI UBoat-Sim interesting? |
This does. 
...and all the other fascinating aspects of this era!  |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: What makes a WWI UBoat-Sim interesting? |
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| subwulf wrote: | hi all
some days before, i heard the first time from this amazing project. And i am really happy about these news. but what makes a WWI subsim so interesting?
- There was no way for the destroyers to find a dived uboat |
Have you never heard that the destroyers were equiped with hydrophones ? Not at the beginning of the war tough. But it also was common practice to shut down the engines and put the ear to the hull below the water line and listen for contacts.
And that the destroyers had even used their echosounders to finde u-boats ?
Nets were also a popular mean to "detect" a submerged u-boat. There were similar means as well
| Quote: | | - It was very difficult to trim and handle a dived uboat. being on the exact periscope depth depended more from luck than from the skill of the uboat-crew |
Lol who told you that ? 
Not that's totaly wrong the u-boats in WWI were very sophisticated(similar to WWII u-boats).
| Quote: | | - The uboats were only for a short time (compared with wwii) on sea and had only few torpedos with them. |
No, no. Not long after the war broke out there was an incident where an u-baot had to sail back to germany all around england and was very long at sea. Form this point the admirality realized that the u-boats could opperate mutch mutch longer than they have expected and than 6 weeks and longer operations were routine. Like in WWII the duration of an operation was limited only by the ammount of fuel, food and ammo.
So at the end of the war german U-Cruisers sailed even to the american coast kicked ships ass and sailed all way back!
| Quote: | | of course, the german uboats during wwi were very effective and a lot of ships sunk by them. but in regarding forward to this uboat-sim: playing a subsim where the result of a battle depends more on luck than on skill or what ever, that's quite boring, isn't it? |
Hmm, luck won't help you so mutch without Skills ! Or can you better specifie your question ?
| Quote: | | but of course i don't want to say that this project is bad. of course not. i am only wondering me whats so fascinating on the uboat-war during wwi? |
Apparently you seem to know almost nothing about WWI subwar, not only that but you also have a very fals imagination of it, then it's understandable that you can't see what is so exciting about it.
But don't worry by the time we will fix it. May i suggest you to pick up a copy of "Raiders of the Deep" and start to read through my page:
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/main.htm
You also might pick up the current WWI u-boat books. Most prefferable from Eberhard Rössler. You seriously need to update your knowledge on the subject.
I also asume you came here from this thread right ?
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=383883#383883
If not read it.
Else if you have more question just fire them of and i will gladly answere you them.
regards
Deamon |
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subwulf
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 31
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:54 am Post subject: Re: What makes a WWI UBoat-Sim interesting? |
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| Deamon wrote: |
Apparently you seem to know almost nothing about WWI subwar, not only that but you also have a very fals imagination of it, then it's understandable that you can't see what is so exciting about it.
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It was my intention to ask a bit provocative.
If people are completely fascinated by something and they want to create a computergame about it, they often don't think enough what makes a computer-game really interesting. To have a very realistic subsim about the WWI but the uboat-war in general at this time was not really complex, tactical (now, after reading your posts, i am convinced thats not as boring as it looks like at the first moment), that would be quite a pity after 1000's of hours developing.
other question:
I have seen on your website, actually there are only two programmers who are developing the game and I read also that you develop an engine by yourself. My suggestion: Why not taking an opensourse-engine which already exists and go on with it? Developing a game that takes so much work in a team of two, maybe thats a bit to much... But of course it would be absolutely exciting to play your uboat-sim in three/four years or how long it takes. So I wish you only the best for your project.
(And please don't take this post as a criticism of your project, but I saw already too many projects failed because the developers wanted to realize a project that was too big - Thats why I have written this threat)
best
subwulf |
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2019
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 596
Location: Polish dude in Amsterdam
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If people are completely fascinated by something and they want to create a computergame about it, they often don't think enough what makes a computer-game really interesting. To have a very realistic subsim about the WWI but the uboat-war in general at this time was not really complex, tactical (now, after reading your posts, i am convinced thats not as boring as it looks like at the first moment), that would be quite a pity after 1000's of hours developing. |
I can say the many commercial games on the market are not interesting.
Keep in mind that this in not a arcadish racer or subsim.
| Quote: | | I have seen on your website, actually there are only two programmers who are developing the game |
And more will follow soon, this is just only the beginning.
| Quote: | | I read also that you develop an engine by yourself. My suggestion: Why not taking an opensourse-engine which already exists and go on with it? |
Actually we make use of a open source engine, the info can be outdated on the site.
| Quote: | | (And please don't take this post as a criticism of your project, but I saw already too many projects failed because the developers wanted to realize a project that was too big - Thats why I have written this threat) |
And why do you think that these projects have been failed?
It's not becuase the size but it's becuase of the the unmotivated people.
All these project are full of guys who are not even interested in the subject but only about their own carreer. they want to join every project as long it goes easy so they get experiance to get a job in the game industry. they model or program some and then become slackers after all.
Yes most indies are full of unmotivated and uninterested slackers who only hope to get in to the game industry by being part of a indie project of a mod and do very little for.
Mosts indies don't have documents and good leaders and even more don't know what they really want.
| Quote: | | It was my intention to ask a bit provocative. |
Now will Deamon give you some answers and questions that will make you think real hard. |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: What makes a WWI UBoat-Sim interesting? |
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| subwulf wrote: | It was my intention to ask a bit provocative.
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Then you realy got me this time on this
| Quote: | | If people are completely fascinated by something and they want to create a computergame about it, they often don't think enough what makes a computer-game really interesting. To have a very realistic subsim about the WWI but the uboat-war in general at this time was not really complex, tactical (now, after reading your posts, i am convinced thats not as boring as it looks like at the first moment), that would be quite a pity after 1000's of hours developing. |
Of course the question is how much do you go in to ditail with your simulation. If i would do a purely tactical u-boat sim with average grafics then the sim might be ineed no so interesting.
But i'm not blinde, i'm very selfconfident about what i do. And when one day i will release the first sim then i'm very sure people will be very surprized and pleased of what we have achieved.
I have a very different approach to the developement, than most others, i believe. Look there are people who like to play sims like virtual sailor, they finde it relaxing and maybe thrilling to sail around with a boat in a nicly done environment. Especialy the diving i found thrilling. So i take this aspect in to the sim. I limit the map at the beginning in that the player can sail around and put all the efforts in to it, so that at the end it will become very ditailed and a pleasure just to sail around in you ole U 1 and look at all the ditails of the ships passing you, the ditails of your own sub and that of the coast and ports.
I played Mikes subsim demo once and operating the sub with 3D interiours was a pure blast for me. It don't took long for me to realize the ultimate immersion potential a 3D interiour environment with free FPS style walking inside the sub have. So i'm going to add it to my sim.
Ok, since i found the diving in Virtual Sailor and in Mikes Demo so thrilling i'm gonna add it to my sim as well. But to make it even more exciting i will add an authentical operational procedure for diving and operating at all. The player can go through all diving preparations and diving ditails thus fully immersed in to it. You won't be able to push a button an everything goes by magic hands but you will go through it step by step thus fully immersed in to it.
To make the immersion even more believable i will add speeches with all the commands with corresponding echos comming from the crew, what will make you feel like a real Captain. Thus even more immersed. But not only that but also making it possible to interact with your environment as well, communicate with other ships as well.
Ok, next. I will include only one driveable sub to the first releas and put all efforts in to it and make it outstanding superb ditailed and fully functional(The good old rule of thumb "Less is more" guides me here). The u-boat is not just eyecandy but actualy you can interact with all ellements of it and experiance it, not only the u-boat but interact with the crew as well. It will be a great thrill to explore all the ditails of the u-boat. The physics of the sub will get the same attention to ditails makeing it move in the waves and below very believable. I'm sure you will be surprized by the level of ditail.
Next. Since the operating will be very ditailed and you will have to know alot i'm adding very comprehensive training possibilities for the player, actualy the whole first release deals only with this subject. It will contain alot of informations, lessons and training missions and i have here a very unique approach as well.
Well and finaly all the tactical aspects comes now too. I will deal with the tactical aspects in depth as well, it will be a bigger challange than in WWII sims. You will celebrate eatch kill you make.
Ok this are 6 reasons that will make alot of fun. Have i forgot to mention something ?
But when we are talking here about fun of playing, i'm a cold war nut and cicumstances leaded me to begin with a WWI project instead of my beloved cold war subsim project. So then i concluded that if i'm going to make a WWI sim then i will do it in a way that will make me, an cold war nut, enyoing it to the fullest. Menawhile the first results seducted me so mutch that i can't leave it anymore :8
EDIT: As you maybe see that the sim has a strong emphasis on the u-boat experiance then being merely a tactical sim. I'm not doing it this way because WWI subwar is boring and need other aspects to counterballance the boredome. If i would have done a cold war sub sim i would have done it in the same level of ditail. It's just the way i'm doing sims.
| Quote: | other question:
I have seen on your website, actually there are only two programmers who are developing the game and I read also that you develop an engine by yourself. My suggestion: Why not taking an opensourse-engine which already exists and go on with it ? Developing a game that takes so much work in a team of two, maybe thats a bit to much...
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Of course i'm aware of the ammount of work it will take. And i think you misstook here something in regards of our engine. Actualy we are going to use what is available for free. But not everything what we will need is available for free or available at all, so many things are still left to us to develope them. We curtainly will not try to develope our own rendering engine or something, what of cours would be a crazy undertaking but all the mechanisms of the sim, the AI and stuff is something we have to develope on our own.
And the team will grow even more. What you see now is just the beginning. 
I will not give up till it's not finished. My vision is very seductive and keeping up the work persistant and stiff-necked will attract more and more devs by the time. Actualy i count on a bigger team to achieve this. It's of course to huge for me alone. But as you see i'm well on the way.
| Quote: | | But of course it would be absolutely exciting to play your uboat-sim in three/four years or how long it takes. So I wish you only the best for your project. |
Oh thanks. You seem to recognize its potential 
Hey, i just looked at your homepage and saw the RTS sim you are making. You seem to have a similar attention for ditails like me 
| Quote: | (And please don't take this post as a criticism of your project, but I saw already too many projects failed because the developers wanted to realize a project that was too big - Thats why I have written this threat)
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Well i understand well what you trying to say me. I see it the same way. But you don't know my evil plan
The idea and the subject itself is just to seductive to give up. I'm 2,5 years now on it, i'm to far to give up and it was very clear to me at the beginning that this will be a long term project. It was a very well considered decision from me to start with it. After all the design work was done i came up with evil plan that just can't fail.
Sure there are many projects out there that came out with a mouth full of promesses and then vanishe in the oblivion. But our project is different. All the people in my team are enthusiasts who dream about sutch a thing for a long time. People here are longterm motivated. Our enthusiasm for the subject drives us.
You see, many people are not serious about their project, are not willing to make all the work neccessery. I guess sutch projects are started by rather very young people who have no idea of what they are doing, then after being confronted with the reality going to be discouraged.
I was also aware that many others will think the same way about my project. I started 2,5 years ago with it and i'm still there HA 
Now i'm pleased to say WE are still there. We are an u-boat crew we never give up right guys ?
You can exorcise the devil to hell but nothing will make us stop to do our thing :8
regards
Deamon |
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subwulf
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 31
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: What makes a WWI UBoat-Sim interesting? |
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| Deamon wrote: |
It's just the way i'm doing sims.
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I like this way too. btw: I think you work on this project only in your spare-time? Or do yo work also in your job as a C++ developer and create sims?
| Deamon wrote: |
I'm 2,5 years now on it, i'm to far to give up and it was very clear to me at the beginning that this will be a long term project.
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I think if someone works on a project since 2.5 years and he is still fully motivated, that says enough.
Still something about my project "Subwolves":
I create it with Visual Basic 6. I know, its quite a shame to program a game by VB, but thats the language i can so far, and i program since many many years with VB. (basically I am studying law, so i have only to do something with computers during my spare-time) but by the beginning of the next year when my project should be finished, it's time to change to C++, because i like programming computer-games so much!!!, and C++ is the best for that.
So what i want to ask is, if my skills in C++ are enough high, i could imagine to work in your team on your project. I like naval-simulation and now after reading some texts about the uboat war during WWI, that seems quite interesting. i hope you are not worried about my "a bit provocative" post above. What do you think about that? A chance to keep in contact?
best regards
subwulf |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: What makes a WWI UBoat-Sim interesting? |
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| subwulf wrote: | | I like this way too. |
I see we have things in common. Do you maybe also like operation flashpoint ?
| Quote: | | btw: I think you work on this project only in your spare-time? |
Not exactly. I'm unemploye due to health problems and spended most of the time on my project. But my health problems also slew me seriously down in the past but i'm mutch better now.
| Quote: | | Or do yo work also in your job as a C++ developer and create sims? |
No i'm realy just a hobby coder. This is my first real thing.
| Deamon wrote: | I think if someone works on a project since 2.5 years and he is still fully motivated, that says enough.
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I'm more motivated now then at the beginning. I'm realy possesed of it. Anytime i finish up some new ditails i get excited of the results and want to do more more more... :8
I become the total u-boat nut, i build all my live around my project and not vice versa. When i have to do some real live stuff and have to leave my project for a few days i start to feel restless und dissadisfied, i need to work on my u-boats, it's like a therapy for me. I feel deep sadisfaction and peace when i can work on my u-boats :8
There is no way back for me anymore!
| Quote: | Still something about my project "Subwolves":
I create it with Visual Basic 6. I know, its quite a shame to program a game by VB, |
I thought once at the beginning where i had no coding skills i thought i should start with VB but realized soon that i would waste my time and moved straigh forwad to C and now to C++.
| Quote: | | and i program since many many years with VB. |
That sounds good. I did some coding just a couple of years.
| Quote: | | (basically I am studying law, so i have only to do something with computers during my spare-time) |
Your gonna be a lawyear ?
| Quote: | | but by the beginning of the next year when my project should be finished, it's time to change to C++, because i like programming computer-games so much!!!, and C++ is the best for that. |
It's the same with me. I love coding games and don't give a damn about anything else. And this attitude brings me often in trouble in my real live  It's time for me to get ritch. But don't you do the wrong study when you love it so mutch to code games ?
Have you any experiance with C++ ?
Actualy i was very surprized to see you making a game. I also though to do a BdU sim one day, with resource management and stuff. Basicaly what you do just in real time on the IUF engine, once it will be finished one day. It also might be neat to allow the player to be promoted in to the command of a flotilla and then play the sim as an RTS game.
| Quote: | | So what i want to ask is, if my skills in C++ are enough high, i could imagine to work in your team on your project. |
 Are you serious ?
| Quote: | | I like naval-simulation and now after reading some texts about the uboat war during WWI, that seems quite interesting. |
Heh, did i triggered your enthusiasm ?
Have you started to read thous textes because of my project ? I also see you did your first post on my forum! What honors me
You are totaly new to WWI subwar right ?
| Quote: | | i hope you are not worried about my "a bit provocative" post above. |
Wanted you to rattle the cage and see whether it's solid before get it ?
| Quote: | | What do you think about that? A chance to keep in contact? |
Now this starts to sound realy intersting. That is maybe the right moment to consecrate you into something. Lets go to PD, i mean to PM
regards
Deamon |
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Hellcat
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 227
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Don't mean to bump your guy's talk or anything, just wanted to chime in on what I think from my POV makes the topic so interesting. As an engineering student I find the development of the technology fasinating; technical innovation in a relatively new field within such a short period of time itself is really outstanding for 90+ years ago.
I just reread the first few chapters of Eberhard Rossler's "The U-Boat" and really took note of the wide variety of designs present during the early part of the war and the difficulty in producing engines along with labour issues crippled construction. (something like 30% slower on avg.) Aside from a technical stand point its interesting to note the various successes of such a new instrument of war, (much akin to the aircraft) the U-boat's swept in and kicked some serious ass. 
Blah Deamon you've got me refocusing my reading/research on world war I.
And as far as modeling gameplay fidelity is concerned... I myself was content in what Aces of the Deep provided, however after playing MSFS 2004, Falcon 4.0, Nascar 4, IL2 FB and games like Rogue Spear there's no such thing as too much detail.  |
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2019
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 596
Location: Polish dude in Amsterdam
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Hey Hellcat, if you would like to read a good starters book about ww1 u-boots, then you should get oyur hands on
'Raiders of the Deep'
by Lowell Thomas
isbn: 1-59114-861-8
| Quote: | | And as far as modeling gameplay fidelity is concerned... I myself was content in what Aces of the Deep provided, however after playing MSFS 2004, Falcon 4.0, Nascar 4, IL2 FB and games like Rogue Spear there's no such thing as too much detail. |
Roque Spear was a fantastic game, the missions were intense and very detialed. I remember that one mission where you on your own have to sneak in to that House and get to the roof and steel some data. Oh man it took me one week to get trought it, I've never played one level so much intense as in RS.
Have you played Operation Flashpoint, Hellcat? |
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Seeteufel
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Hamburg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We are an u-boat crew we never give up, right guys ? |
Right captain! NEVER! |
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Hellcat
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 227
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:21 am Post subject: |
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Well actually yes I've played Operation Flashpoint + Resistence since it came out a few years back. Sorta grew outta it as I found some of the game issues fustrating. (particularily the way buildings are modeled)
On the topic of books I have several on their way now...
The U-Boat Offensive 1914-1945; Tarrant, V.E.
Submarine Warfare: An Illustrated History; Anthony Preston (I know his books are mostly pictures, but for $4.00 I could'nt pass)
Also I recently received my copy of Siegfried Breyer's Battleships and Battle Cruisers 1905 1970.... wow this is just about one of the best technical books I own and at $30cdn |
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Hitman
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3059
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | some days before, i heard the first time from this amazing project. And i am really happy about these news. but what makes a WWI subsim so interesting?
- There was no way for the destroyers to find a dived uboat
- It was very difficult to trim and handle a dived uboat. being on the exact periscope depth depended more from luck than from the skill of the uboat-crew
- The uboats were only for a short time (compared with wwii) on sea and had only few torpedos with them.
of course, the german uboats during wwi were very effective and a lot of ships sunk by them. but in regarding forward to this uboat-sim: playing a subsim where the result of a battle depends more on luck than on skill or what ever, that's quite boring, isn't it?
but of course i don't want to say that this project is bad. of course not. i am only wondering me whats so fascinating on the uboat-war during wwi?
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Destroyers had hydrophones as war advanced, but in the first phases they simply dropped their DCs in the wake left by the sub when diving (It toook a really long time to dive). Considering that the U-Boots usually had a safe diving depth of 30-40 metres maximum, it was not common to hit them, BUT it was easy to ake them loose trim and sink without control, until they crushed. Even in WW2 U-Boots where normally sunk by DCs not because of direct impact, but instead because of the heavy push the boot received, which many times catapulted it to the depths with no control, or to the surface. Destroyers also used a towed mine, which when hitting the sub exploded. Even if only the towing cable got the U-Boot, it would have the mine slip along it as the DD advanced, and finally impact the boot.
As you already said, trimming and handling a submerged U-Boot was VERY difficult, so even if the ASW tactics and tools were rudimentary, the U-Boots could be sunk because their developement and control also was.
The fight is therefore equally balanced in WW1 as in WW2
Then there are the Q-ships, and mines, this last ones credited with a good amount of sinkings. |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Hellcat wrote: | | Don't mean to bump your guy's talk or anything, just wanted to chime in on what I think from my POV makes the topic so interesting. As an engineering student I find the development of the technology fasinating; technical innovation in a relatively new field within such a short period of time itself is really outstanding for 90+ years ago. |
Oh yes that was a pretty good performance of the constructors. And if the war would have lasted a while longer we would have seen things like the project 50 with steam engine propulsion making 25 kn and armed with 4 155mm guns and armoured pretty heavily.
| Quote: | | I just reread the first few chapters of Eberhard Rossler's "The U-Boat" and really took note of the wide variety of designs present during the early part of the war |
I think that is one of the aspects that would make a WWI sim so interesting. Given it would model a wide variaty of them.
| Quote: | | Blah Deamon you've got me refocusing my reading/research on world war I. |
My evil plan at work. No one can escape the seduction of this subject once he tasted it
Whitch role did my Articles played in it ?
Tell me how mutch model experiance do you have ?
| Quote: | | And as far as modeling gameplay fidelity is concerned... I myself was content in what Aces of the Deep provided, however after playing MSFS 2004, Falcon 4.0, Nascar 4, IL2 FB and games like Rogue Spear there's no such thing as too much detail. |
Don't know the other games but falcon is a good comparison of what i try to make out of my project.
Deamon |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Hellcat wrote: | | Well actually yes I've played Operation Flashpoint + Resistence since it came out a few years back. Sorta grew outta it as I found some of the game issues fustrating. (particularily the way buildings are modeled) |
Yeah, apparently flashpoint lacks the urban assault capability nad has countless flaws. But else this game was the best i ever played. The feeling when you run around in it is so real. But grew out of it too. Looking forward to flashpoint 2. There it must be fully capeable of any combat type and i guess all the flaws will be ruled out. I expect flashpoint 2 will be a blockbuster again.
| Quote: | On the topic of books I have several on their way now...
The U-Boat Offensive 1914-1945; Tarrant, V.E.
Submarine Warfare: An Illustrated History; Anthony Preston (I know his books are mostly pictures, but for $4.00 I could'nt pass)
Also I recently received my copy of Siegfried Breyer's Battleships and Battle Cruisers 1905 1970.... wow this is just about one of the best technical books I own and at $30cdn |
Make sure you get "Raiders of the Deep".
Deamon |
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