[ronbrewer]

I'm a newcomer to sub simulations and just bought SH3 the middle of June. I'm finding the game so incredible that I've been wanting to learn more about the historical facts of U-boats (the same thing happened to me back in the early 90's when Dynamix had that great Red Baron game). I just finished reading Iron Coffins and found Werner's story fascinating. However, I noticed on Amazon's reader reviews and on this board's poll last week that some people have problems with Werner's facts. I tried doing a google search to find any information on what these problems are but I'm coming up empty. Can anyone point me in the right direction to get more information about the controversy?

Thanks,
Ron

[Egan]

There was one quote atributed to another U-boat skipper who said something along the lines of " If I used a red pen to mark out every time Werner wrote something that was factually incorrect the manuscript would look like a slaughter house."

It is a great book, and in terms of the atmosphere and feeling of being on board a U-boat it is probably pretty accurate. I think there are a few problems with his technical descriptions and knowledge of events outside his boat. His claims that he and other boats were ordered to ram enemy ships once their torpedoes ran out during the D-Day invasion certainly seems to have been rather cotroversial.

anyway, thats what I know. I'm sure others will be happy to point out other facets of the story.

[Nefarious]

[Catfish]

Hello,
Werner's "Iron coffins" is also a political book, and he did merge facts he experienced himself with facts from other witnesses - those are still facts, even if one particular event did not happen to him personally. There are several mistakes in a way that he only explains technical things in a general way, but the critics certainly use this to discredit all his other statements.

The ramming order has certainly been discussed controversially, but there are several examples that strongly support the "suicide" order.

"Every U-boat that sinks or damages an enemy, with it's utmost sacrifice, be it even a small landing craft, has done it's duty, even if it means the loss of the boat and it's crew".

Not too much leeway for imagination ... however you have to see that there were "unspoken" orders, that carried the spirit even if it would not be said aloud.

Greetings,
Catfish

[ronbrewer]

I did find some information at the link below. Not sure if this has been posted in the past. Thanks for your comments.

http://www.uboatwar.net/1ufram.htm

[ronbrewer]

I did find some information at the link below. Not sure if this has been posted in the past. Thanks for your comments.

http://www.uboatwar.net/1ufram.htm

[Catfish]

Hello,
well, if you read the order in german language, there is no doubt what is meant. Werner was not the only one who understood the order as it was, e.g. Lothar-Guenther Buchheim (author of "Das Boot" and other naval war related books) also understood it as sacrificing boat and crew. There are lots of others though, but not all commanders got this order - only those belonging to the group "Bauer" that was to attack the invasion fleet. The name "Bauer" (=pawn) alone tells you how this operation was meant ... from a strategic point of view.
Greetings,
Catfish

[Beery]

As I recall, some of the radio reports of boats sinking that Werner cites are incorrect. I think they were put in there to enhance the drama rather than as a faithful reporting of events. I don't think there's anything wrong with that - historical books are usually more about the person's memory than about objective fact, and sometimes the memory of an event has its own drama that is hard to insert into a book except by use of such dramatic licence. It would be nice if more readers realised that autobiographies and books of anecdotes aren't necessarily meant to be 100% factual.

[Barkhorn1x]

[AceChilla]

If you look at the amount of tonnage he claims to have sunk, and look up the actual data of tonnage sunk of the boats he sailed, you will find moast of hiss claims are pure nonsense.

But hey, it's still a good story and a great book. No doubt about it. Just don't use his book as historical accurate data.

[Subnuts]

Well, I wrote this in the review I did for epinions.com (I won't link it, trying to avoid self-promotion)

"Earlier in this review, I mentioned that parts of Iron Coffins seemed to be "made out of whole cloth". For quite some time, I took Iron Coffins to be the "gospel truth" of life aboard a German U-boat in World War II. A little research proved me dead wrong; in fact, it seems that Werner outright invented entire convoy attacks, leaving me to believe that the entire book may be outright fabrication.

In actuality, U-557 sank a single 7,000 ton merchant on her first patrol. Werner has included a prolonged nighttime convoy attack, inflating the patrols total to seven merchants sunk, for 37,000 tons. On her third patrol, Paulshen & crew sank a single 4,000 ton merchant. Once again, Werner has U-557 engaging in a night surface attack, sinking six ships for 32,000 tons.

The fabrication doesn't end there. During U-230's first patrol with Werner as first watch officer, a single 2,800-ton merchant was sunk. Somehow, this has been increased to seven for 35,000 tons. The narrative of U-230's fourth patrol also omits the sinking of two British Tank Landing Ships. Finally, Werner describes attacking an Allied convoy in January 1945, observing at least three distinct torpedo hits. Official records fail to credit him with damaging or sinking a single vessel. "

[Beery]

Like I said before, autobiographies are always about memory more than about reality. They can't be relied upon for fact any more than a science fiction book should be used as a source for science. Reality is not what autobiographies are about, and anyone who looks for fact in an autobiography is looking in the wrong place.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in what Werner wrote. If readers assume that the book should contain facts about the U-boat war, that is entirely the reader's problem. If the reader is after facts, he needs to seek out statistics, not reminiscences.

[Floater]

The consensus seems to be that, while Iron Coffins has technical flaws, it describes very accurately the life of a U-boat commander.

It remains my second favourite U-boat book (after Das Boot), mainly because Werner writes so well. And if he's been truthful about his experiences immediately after the war - my goodness! It's worth the price for that part alone. I'll not spoil it for anyone who hasn't read it, but let's say his tale is surprising.

[Johnny Bax]

If you read Clay Blair's "Hitler's U-Boat War", you'll find that Werner was not the only skipper to make claims that have been not been able to be confirmed by existing records. Does that mean that those claims are bogus, or does it mean that the Allied loss records are not complete? I don't think anyone really knows the answer. Based on other forms of combat where kills were recorded(air combat comes to mind), then I think it's obvious that some overclaims definately happened and are understandable considering the chaos of combat.

That being said, Werner's book is fascinating, and if it stimulates you to read more books on the Battle of the Atlantic, or on WWII in general, that's a good thing.

[Beery]