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Version 1.0 of the Game
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Hitman



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3059
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:15 am    Post subject: Version 1.0 of the Game Reply with quote

To continue here the discussion initiated in another thread, I have opened this one.

To remember previously discussed stuff, we can conclude that version 1.0 of the game is better for single player than the patched 1.1

Here is a list of improvemets and drawbacks ( Please anyone interested feel free to add anything ), so we can give a bit of feedback and hints for those who want to use it:

///////////// PROS: ////////////////////////////////////

-Sonar range of the player?s sub is a realistic 18-20 miles instead of nearly 50
-Resupply works
-DDs are more aggresivve and random in their behaviour and search patterns
-DDs return to formation after they looose you instead of dropping completely from the main group


///////////// CONS ( And fixes fro them ): //////////

-1.0 freezes or crashes sometimes with Win XP.
FIX: Set the Shell.exe and Sim.exe of the game to compatibility with W98SE in the Win XP properties label

-1024 mode has a corrupted graphic in the depth gauge ( The red/yellow/green lines from the dial appear in the middle of the screen)
FIX: Set the priority of the background to 1 in the Navigation.DSF file for 1024

-Ships tend to run aground and loose their waypoints when attacked.
FIX: No real fix for this, but convoy behaviour can largely be improved when ships are sparated by bigger distances ( Min 1000 metres ), like Floater?s KT does

-DDs are too good and kill you always:
FIX: Apply some enhencement mods or reduce values of sonar to realistic detection ranges. Use CB?s DesV5, Fletcher?s mod, or NWS files pack. You can also use Redwine?s realistic depth charges mod, and reduce the sonar sensitivity of the DDs through the sim.INI file.

-Graphics do slow down a bit: This can happen in older computers. No fix for this

-Most of the watermods and Vicker?s fireball and similars do not work: This is something to be tested carefully. May be a little tweak can make them compatible, but it?s the highest price to pay for the use of this version. However, there are still some working mods out there, and all the periscope mods should work well.

Thanks


Last edited by Hitman on Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hitman



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3059
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resuming here from the other topic:

Quote:
those wolfpack triggers radio message s are intrigueing have a look at the
TestWolfpack.msg in the messages folder (apologies if yu allready have)
and there are WOLFPACK triggers and commands in the game that havent been fully explored as yet..all good stuff..


No, I had not explored them yet, but will see Smile Thanks for the head up!

Have you already done some research?

I have managed to make you technique for Wolfpack called by radio message work very well. They do always appear and kill some merchants, or at least they open a hole in the escort screen to allow you get into the convoy ( That“s the main interest for me, as I“m trying to use manual TDC now...fascinating! ). Changing the proper line in the text, my radio room shows now the message "Support Request" instead of "Resupply Request". I think this is equally good either for calling a Wolfpack or a supply ship ( I“m a damned perfectionist, you now..LOL )

Quote:
have yu thought for ACES of using Floater's krieg dev to create the templates for it main thought is that the convoy formations Floater uses are usually extremely stable and don't exhibit the usually mahem associated with SH2 convoys...they are usually dead reliable and dont break up at all even under constant attack...they just side step the dead ship and carry on with a parade ground perfect change of course..brilliant.


I have generated some scenarios with KT, but the convoy formations seemed a bit to wide for my taste. Large front side and small lateral side ( May be it is a matter of the chosen pattern ). However, in my latest convoys I have managed to program them in a way they don“t break and keep well in formation. The trick is leaving no less than 1000 metres between ships Smile , which also gives nice chances of penetrating the screen because the convoy occupies a bigger area and separates much more the escorts Smile Also, a very noticeable effect is setting the leading unit to have this line "Guide=TRUE"

Cheers
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Beltza



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 361
Location: EspaƱa

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are you thinking about? To return to this version? Surprised
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Hitman



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3059
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am already playing only version 1.0 in single Smile

I like it much more than version 1.1

Cheers
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MLF



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 165
Location: Dorset UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitman

What is the date stamp and size of the Sim.exe you use?

MLF
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Floater



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 2300
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitman wrote:
I have generated some scenarios with KT, but the convoy formations seemed a bit to wide for my taste. Large front side and small lateral side ( May be it is a matter of the chosen pattern ).

This should be fixed in the new version (I think you have the beta?) - groups are now in a more square formation. I was misled about convoy layouts - someone on the old forums was certain that convoys were laid out with many more columns than rows, on the basis that it made attacks on the flank more difficult, so I did that. Now I know better. Wink
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Hitman



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3059
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
(I think you have the beta?)


Yes, I have it and gave it a try, but I focused in DC scenarios and you already know the problem I had with SH2 ( It did not start the game, despite generatig correctly the mission ), so testing was a bit painful. And because I found another method of scriting convoys fast myself, I had not studied in deep the possibilities of generating them with KT

BTW: Have you considered making a tool or add-on for KT in order to ake templates for convoys? Scripting them is easy, and the benefit of having random types of ships, escorts, and the names of the DB in the units would make a great way of having hundreds of templates for careers like Aces Kamp with just one click Smile Also, Pacific Aces and Rossbach“s Artic Kamp could benefit a lot from it.

Cheers
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Floater



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 2300
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitman wrote:
Have you considered making a tool or add-on for KT in order to ake templates for convoys? Scripting them is easy, and the benefit of having random types of ships, escorts, and the names of the DB in the units would make a great way of having hundreds of templates for careers like Aces Kamp with just one click Smile Also, Pacific Aces and Rossbach“s Artic Kamp could benefit a lot from it.

No, I hadn't thought of that, but it wouldn't be hard to do. I've added it to the to-do list, but it won't be in the new version, as I'm working on finishing that off ready for issue.

Thanks for the idea! Idea
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Fletcher



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 858

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitman:

Interesting observations. Too bad the patch introduced so many new problems.

Floater:

I have tried to crack the limits to the number of campaign missions that appear in the scroll bar for mission selection, just using the game files, but no go. Currently, the maximum number of campaign missions that can be displayed is 20. This severely limits a campaign designer to the number of missions he can include in a campaign.

However, would it be possible to make a small program that when run, would allow for a campaign to contain more than 20 missions, and that would allow the player to see all of the missions that makup that one campaign?

If it is possible to do this, then this would allow for campaigns to contain many more missions than the standard number of 20. Possibly increase the number of missions per campaign to say 30 or 50.

Also, would it be possible to have your new KT contain a list of RoE in a drop down menu that a player could access so he could add them to ships in a mission?

Cheers!
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CB..



Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2306
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitman wrote:
I have managed to make you technique for Wolfpack called by radio message work very well. They do always appear and kill some merchants, or at least they open a hole in the escort screen to allow you get into the convoy ( That“s the main interest for me, as I“m trying to use manual TDC now...fascinating! ). Changing the proper line in the text, my radio room shows now the message "Support Request" instead of "Resupply Request". I think this is equally good either for calling a Wolfpack or a supply ship ( I“m a damned perfectionist, you now..LOL )


Yep what an excellent idea !! will have a go at that myself...makes the fact that the ressuply base doesn't respond 100% realiably a positive element, nice one..!
yes i had forgoten about that idea thanks for reminding me it really does take care of the time excell problems yu get with normal cycling airbase spawned packs (ie not much use in large scale missions) this way they don't appear untill yu radio them which makes sending contact reports as an objective more edgy and realistic...

i find with both version one of the game and the semi patched version im using (version one with version 1;1 sim/shell exes) is that the auto TDC is far less reliable and allso the map screen functions a whole lot crisper the sonar cones etc are far more responsive and reveal that the AI is seemingly behaving in a more complex fashion than in the fully patched game ..he! he! i spent years working on the DES mods and i find that ultimately i don't need to use the mod at all in version one (etc) of the game because evrything i wanted DES to do is actually happening as stock !! go figure... Razz

i havent really had a bash at the wolfpack messages as yet (had a few abortive attempts a while ago but nothing seriuos) i think Floater has had a look at them regarding the dynamic elements in the message ?
but i think if they do some how seem to work it will be a complex set of sdf entrys needed to set it up....i think using the SUBWOLFPACK header for the subs as well as perhaps a specific ressuply like instruction on the airbase and roe maybe ...havent had the heart to take it on board i must admit

have to talk to EAJ19 he's never used any othere version of the game than version one!!! he's the guy who discovered that the ressupply script i cooked up actually worked!!
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Hitman



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 3059
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what an excellent idea !! will have a go at that myself...makes the fact that the ressuply base doesn't respond 100% realiably a positive element, nice one..!


here are my notes about resupply bases spawning a wolfpack ( To save you some pain, excuse if you already knew this ):

-The base should be located in the center of your patrol zone ( It can match your REACH objective, f.e. )
-The radius should be moderate ( Say about 150 miles max )
-The base must have the line "Resupply = N", where N is the number of the GROUP with the friendly subs
-The Wolfpack group must have aggressive orders. I use "Attack,2,Torpedos,GROUP", where group 2 is the convoy. The use of group instead of units allows the AI subs better targeting, as they can choose the closest unit of that group, and are not forced to aim at a specific unit.
-The most important of all: The units will ( Unlike what happens in other base spawned units ) appear always at their given location, and not simply on a relative distance to the player. So you should locate the subs of the pack a) inside the radius of the base, and b) spreaded around so they can attack the convoy from different sides.
-My experience is that packs of 2 and max 3 subs give the best results, specially if the DDs have tweaked sensors giving realistic detection ranges, as that will allow a more fair engagement

One remarkable thing is that AI subs are not as bad as we used to think. They do in fact perform some nice attack and evasive actions, but the super DDs were simply too good for them.

Here is an interesting test you can easily do:

Create a mission with a radio called wolfpack, wait till the convoy is in the base radius and call the pack. Ensure you are close enough to were a sub will spawn ( drop a map note or similar ) and now with the external camera change to the spawned sub view and stick to him. Use your sliding panel to give your own sub order to submerge and sail away at slow speed to avoid being detected ( So you can relax and watch what happens ) and see what the AI sub does Smile

Their usual behaviour is to approach, go to peri depth and fire a salvo of torpedos, then reload and fire again. If they get detected they go up and down, and turn sharp, as well as increase/decrease their speed. Yes, they are not bad at all, and with realistic DD sensors they even manage to outcome DDs sometimes.

Believe, it is real fun to watch Very Happy No wonder the AI subs are so difficult to kill with depthcharges in DC. If they have proper orders, they perform well :know:

Cheers
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PapaNours



Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 255
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Version 1.0 and KT only ?
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Floater



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 2300
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fletcher:

How would you suggest increasing the limit on campaign missions? It seems to me that 20 is a reasonable maximum number of missions for a campaign, anyway - more important, I think is the issue of random and branching campaigns, and SH3 might blow all consideration about that out of the water (excuse the pun).

As for ROE orders in KD/KT, that's near the top of the list for the next-but-one version - it didn't make into the next version because I ran out of time. An extra tab on the "Plot Properties" form, with all ROE parameters available, or just the default ROE - that's the idea. I don't know if or when I'll implement it, though.

CB:

I'm afraid I've never played with wolfpacks, so I can't help with the radio messages without further work. I just did some testing with some of the "%s" bits in the stock messages and took it from there, so you get the sinking reports from Kriegstanz missions.

Unfortunately, that feature wasn't as exciting as I'd hoped. Sad

Hitman:

I'd really like to try a mission like that, so I can observe an AI sub from external view. Do you happen to have an SDF that allows that to be done? If so, could you email me a copy, please?
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CB..



Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2306
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Floater wrote:
Unfortunately, that feature wasn't as exciting as I'd hoped.


he ! he! know what yu mean John!
perhaps re the wolfpacks using the ressupply call to bring them into play would enhance the experience reducing the dang annoying time excell stuff with other wolfpacks (yur right kills it stone dead after a while) i believe it's a great way to use then as yu don't actually have to radio them in if yu dont want so it gives the player the choice!! (nicely solving the time excell issues if yu do decide to radio them in then yu know yur in for a period of reduced time excell so it's not so irritating allso yu can as Hm says bung 'em where they count close to the player position where they have maximum positive effect on the gameplay and minimum negative and so on )

hope yu didnt mean the radio messages aren't as interesting as yu thought..i love the KD dynamic messages...real gold dust many thanks for them!!! yu know i'm a fan of KD !! so no surprises there! Yep


cheers HM will use yur advice and write a few missions Yep
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MLF



Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 165
Location: Dorset UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad
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