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| Is it important to be able to select faster TMA marking frequencies? |
| Yes |
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66% |
[ 14 ] |
| No |
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33% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 21 |
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| Author |
Message |
skriblz
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 286
Location: Philadelphia, PA
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 Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:19 pm Post subject: Poll: Improving TMA |
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| The TMA stations in Sub Command read bearings from the sonar trackers strictly at two minute intervals. Is this adequate for all situations? For example, trying to get a good solution on an evading sub. (I'm talking about manual TMA here). The dot stack station in Fast Attack reads bearings as frequently as once ever 10 seconds. In DW, should we not be able to increase the frequency to once per minute or maybe once per 30 seconds. |
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nattydread
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 667
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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im all for it if its realistic...if it has a basis in reality.
On the other hand, i'd figure a bearing read every 2 mins is adequate Id think when dealing with units traveling 40kts at the ranges we are able to track contacts. Yes you can read every little jig, zig and zag, but its the general heading, speed and position that matters since our fish will track and home in on them on their own.
Even if you see a drastic course change 2 mins after you launch the fish, you'd likly have time to re-direct the fish while its still on the wire...or launch a second one(after the first fish, stealth likly isnt an issue anymore).
I can understand the frigate wanting higher resolution for bearing traces, but that would only be an issue Id think if it was damn near on top of the sub tracking it. |
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Three14
Joined: 23 Feb 2001
Posts: 575
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:20 am Post subject: |
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10 secs is a bit ridiculous!
I seem to remember various real life TMA people saying they got the stacks in 1 minute intervals, but I could easily be mistaken. Anyway, I didn't get the impression that there is an option for this, but I could easily be mistaken. |
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Bubblehead555
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 148
Location: Omaha, Nebraska - USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:25 pm Post subject: Why I voted yes |
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Longer time averaging will 'filter' the data and provide better bearing rate. Shorter time averaging will produce more 'dots' (FIDOs) but the player will have to 'fair through' the data more themself.
Towed array narrowband bearings based on weak tonals, usually from fairly distant contacts do much better with longer time averaging.
Sphere/hull broadband occurs on fairly close contacts, and (depending on the line of sight) can produce good bearing rate, and would be much more suitable to a short time averaging. |
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compressioncut
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 238
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| nattydread wrote: |
I can understand the frigate wanting higher resolution for bearing traces, but that would only be an issue Id think if it was damn near on top of the sub tracking it. |
Three minutes TBP/TFP, up to six on the strip plot depending on the scale used. If you were on top of a sub, you'd have long ago abandoned TMA and gone straight to active, close in ASW (also known as "suicide," in most situations).
There's also the consideration that manual TMA, IRL, is labour-intensive, and less than three minutes per measurement is really pushing it in terms of measuring, drawing, calculating and evaluating (that said, we'd do it with computer assistance in a real threat situation - it's done manually in peacetime to keep the skills up). Not a consideration in SC, or DW presumably. |
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nattydread
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 667
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Yeah I forgot about active...geesh. I guess you can guess what ill be manning in game.
Recent readings really has me interested in Russian subs...plus there seems to be something warm and cuddly about sinking a ship.
Ill likly try air unit stoo if they are modeled realistic enough. |
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Deamon
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 2302
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| compressioncut wrote: | | nattydread wrote: |
I can understand the frigate wanting higher resolution for bearing traces, but that would only be an issue Id think if it was damn near on top of the sub tracking it. |
Three minutes TBP/TFP, up to six on the strip plot depending on the scale used. If you were on top of a sub, you'd have long ago abandoned TMA and gone straight to active, close in ASW (also known as "suicide," in most situations).
There's also the consideration that manual TMA, IRL, is labour-intensive, and less than three minutes per measurement is really pushing it in terms of measuring, drawing, calculating and evaluating (that said, we'd do it with computer assistance in a real threat situation - it's done manually in peacetime to keep the skills up). Not a consideration in SC, or DW presumably. |
Whatt's TBP/TFP and what's IRL ?
Deamon |
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compressioncut
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 238
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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TBP is a Time Bearing Plot, TFP is a Time Frequency Plot. Plots of bearing versus time, and frequency versus time - TFP is more accurate but requires a steady narrowband tonal for a long period of time, which is fairly unlikely. They are used to narrow down the possible solutions you get on the strip plot (stacking the dots) - the solution is almost always presented on the strip plot, but picking it out can be a challenge.
"IRL" just means "in real life." |
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skriblz
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 286
Location: Philadelphia, PA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| nattydread wrote: |
<snip>
Even if you see a drastic course change 2 mins after you launch the fish, you'd likly have time to re-direct the fish while its still on the wire...or launch a second one(after the first fish, stealth likly isnt an issue anymore).
<snip>
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When i said getting a fix on an evading sub, the circumatances I was thinking about were that you did not already have a fix on the sub before it started to evade. (Imagine being in a high contact density area, and you weren't paying attention to a contact until you got a TIW report from it's bearing, forcing you to snapshot.) So now maybe the enemy captain is changing course every 60 or 30 seconds (okay mabey no one evades far away torpedos like this but let's say he's panicing.. or has some unique tactic). I don't think you could even expect rough accuracy with two minute bearing intervals in this case. |
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nattydread
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 667
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I always assumed that you fire a fih from within 10km. So basically if you have an idea where he is fire the fish. He cant get too far away in the time it takes for the fish to get in his general area. He is either going throttle up and let you know where he is and going, or the fish will see him when he goes active. If the Sub makes a lot erratic manuvers, he wont be making any real seperation form where he wa picked up. |
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compressioncut
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 238
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| nattydread wrote: | | I always assumed that you fire a fish from within 10km. |
If you fire a weapon outside of 5km, the target has an extremely high probability of evasion - at 10k, we're talking near 100%. Even a surface ship will evade a modern Western torpedo at 10k with exceptional results. A properly executed TCM (torpedo countermeasure manoeuver) procedure can give surprisingly good results, even at very close range on excellent solutions. I have a feeling that DW sub drivers will be surprised at what a very aggressive player-operated frigate will be able to do  (I hope anyway!) |
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timmyg00
Joined: 11 Jan 2001
Posts: 1003
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Based on what compressioncut and bubblehead555 have noted, i think 2 minutes is a "happy medium" for TMA updates, and selectability in that regard is not important to me. (i might try it if it was available, however.) I've manned the CEP myself, which can be a challenge to keep up with at times, and that's not even as intensive as the TBP or TFP. Depending on contact density or other tactical considerations, the order would occasionally be given to increase update frequency on some contacts from 3 minutes to 2 (or am i thinking of the piloting party  ), so I have doubts about how more data would improve the situation.
But like i said, if selectability was a feature... i'd try it.
TG |
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Bubblehead555
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 148
Location: Omaha, Nebraska - USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:59 pm Post subject: In both piloting and FC party |
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| timmyg00 wrote: | Depending on contact density or other tactical considerations, the order would occasionally be given to increase update frequency on some contacts from 3 minutes to 2 (or am i thinking of the piloting party ), so I have doubts about how more data would improve the situation.
But like i said, if selectability was a feature... i'd try it.
TG |
The higher the bearing rate of a contact, the shorter time interval you'd like to use, to ensure the generated bearing of the contact was correct in the FC system (or on the plot) ... this is especially true when the contact is near CPA where its bearing rate will change dramatically. WRT to piloting, fix interval is changed based on the proximity of NAV hazards ... a good rule of thumb is to be able to get two fixes before the ship runs astray ... so the faster you're moving, and the closer you are to NAV hazards, the shorter your fix interval would be ... in piloting, two or three minute rounds, open ocean ... fifteen or thirty minute updates off the internal navigators. |
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Ramius
Joined: 31 May 2001
Posts: 4092
Location: England
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| timmyg00 wrote: | | .. I've manned the CEP myself, which can be a challenge to keep up with at times, and that's not even as intensive as the TBP or TFP... |
ahhh back in the days LOL
Nothing beats being stuck away in the corner, slouched over you little stool (seat type). Plotting away quite happily, then all hell breaks loose :huh:
Someone has a bright idea - lets goto PD :nope: So now the lights go off, you get shouted at for trying to use a torch so you can see what your doing. You keep getting kicked and puched by people 'cos they can't see you stuck away
Then to make things worse, you get slapped over the back of the head for using a blue pen when you should be using a black one . So you think to yourself... "How the hell can you tell what colour pen i'm using, when i can't ###### see what im supposed to be plotting !!! "
ahhh yes, back in the days 
Anyway - having the option of at least a 30 second update would be nice.
Putting a CEP or BFP in it to - well that would just be GREAT
Ramius |
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Bubblehead555
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 148
Location: Omaha, Nebraska - USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:54 am Post subject: good old days |
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[quote="Ramius"] | timmyg00 wrote: | Then to make things worse, you get slapped over the back of the head for using a blue pen when you should be using a black one . So you think to yourself... "How the hell can you tell what colour pen i'm using, when i can't ###### see what im supposed to be plotting !!! "
ahhh yes, back in the days
Ramius |
that's why I used chart tape on the magic markers, and wrote BLACK, BLUE, GREEN, or BLUE on them ... I was the GOD of Time Range ... heck, just use a wiz wheel, do line of sight, bearing rate for speed across the LOS, and Time Freq for speed in the LOS ... the solution is right there .... good enough for a 48 for sure !!!  |
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