[Pigfish]

[Jamie]

[Jamie]

[Lt. Staumeier]

I personally think that if you have classified a contact, you should see it fully animated. It annoys me so friggin' much that the models aren't animated. A sub, with prop dead in the water, MOVING????? Please, this is mostly cosmetic, but why no animation when you have truth off? Most players never se the animations then, because they never play with truth on...

I hope more people consider this an issue, or am I alone?

[Fish]

[quote="Jamie"][quote="Michiel de Ruyter"]The thing is, nobody wants others 'riding the torpedo' as per 688i H/K, but just about everyone wants to see things go BOOM and slowly sink into the bottom mud. The ShowDead feature was a fair stab at the problem, but (for me at least) not quite as satisfying as seeing what really happened (I get a morbid kick out of seeing a surface target manouver to get out of my ADCAPs way)

Hey MdR,

Well, the question as it was posed above is how do you give that "explosion payoff" without cheating? THe problem is that often by allowing the player to see the impending doom at the hand of their outbound weapons you reveal information that they may not have "earned" yet... For instance, what if you hit someone that you may not have intended to hit and may not have even known was there - it was an undetected platform which the weapon acquired somehow? That's the concern.

===============================================

I hope we have the opportunity to watch out outbound torpedos after you die in a multiplayer game , as in 688. Thats not cheating, because your unable to do anything with the info you get.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

... this has been a very interesting thread, getting the different perspectives from everyone here on the issue of how and when to suspend reality as far as showinging enemy and friendly platforms involved in an engagement.

my opinion, and I'm sure this is going to get a lotta flack for this, is that this whole discussion has come about do to the lack of immersion represented in past sims of this nature.

what i mean is, if you are in a sub, there should be enough to do to keep you busy enough so that you wouldn't have much time to sit and watch a external tv view of torp homing in on a (suspected) target...

as a matter of fact, if you are aboard a sub, and you are submerged, you really aren't even going to get a fish eye view of your vessel as it glides silently by at 50 fathoms.

ask yourself this... would a view of the torp detonating against or nearby the hull of the target (assuming that the solution was dead on) be really fair to the sub player, as far as attempting to convey the illusion that you are really aboard a submerged, visually incapacitated platform, and can only ascertain a hit by the sounds picked up from the surrounding ocean...

... add to the fact that you may not have actually killed the target at all, and the mouse may now become the cat in this engagement.

as a substitute for this, i would add more in vessel immersion and tasks to keep the virtual crewmember occupied and happy...

... especially around the sensor and tracking activities.

in short, for me, the more real the better... get rid of show truth and all that stuff. you would only see another vessel if you were near enough to it and it was either surfaced, flying overhead, or had its scope or snorkel up.

i'm sure this would apply as well from a P3 crew perspective, a DD crew perspective, whatever...

ok, now back to the real world... of other sailor's views, the general public, and marketing decisions...

of course, there are going to be many who want to see the results of a successful prosecution... and who want to see the other platforms, as well as their own, sailing by...

... and as a developer, you are going to have to find that fine line between reality and virtual reality, and making everybody happy... all i can say is that i don't envy you the task.

one thing is for sure... you guys are giving everyone a say here... this has definitely gotta help in the final implementation of the Show Truth issue.

--Mike

[wathomas777]

First of all, the whole "3d" view thing I believe is irrelevant.

Real submariners don't have the option. And yes, when you look on your fire control screen and see that Torp go right through your contact, you know your solution is hosed.

The only way a submariner really knows is by noting that the torp has indeed acquired. The torp can't "classify" the information, so you don't know exactly WHAT it acquired, but if it acquired SOMETHING and that SOMETHING is near where your contact is, then you put 2 and 2 together.

After the Torp explodes, Sonarmen listen for hull breakup as the contact sinks.

The same holds true for using Harpoons. TLAMS, give absolutely no indication of hits. In fact the sub captain better be more concerned with Clearing Datum than hanging around the launch site to admire his work.

I think a nice compromise in this scenario would be like Red Storm Rising does.

As the weapons go into terminal mode after they have acquired, you could switch that contact to "show truth" for THAT CONTACT ONLY 2 sec or so prior to impact, so that 3D gamers could have the satisfaction of seeing their weapons land. If, the Torp does NOT acquire the targeted contact or acquired a further contact, nothing would happen. Thus, you allow the 3d folks to get the pay off IF and ONLY if the wep hit it's designated contact. IF it hits a friendly then you simply get the explosion down the bearing, and you are left (like a real sub driver) wondering if you didn't hit the target...what DID you hit......

For the purists, we could turn that off and rely on sonar reports for the sounds of hull breakup and loss of screw noises down that bearing (like Fast Attack).

Con, FireControl: Torpedo has acquired.
FireControl, Con: Aye
Con, Sonar: Explosion on the bearing of Master One.
Sonar, Con: Aye.
Con, Sonar: Hull breakup noises on the bearing of master One.
Sonar Con: Aye.
Con, Sonar: Lost contact, Master One.
Sonar, Con: Aye.

If I get those three reports, I'll assume Master One is unlocking Davy Jones Locker.

Personally I like the things mosltly like they are.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

wathomas77... what if the weapon locks onto a countermeasure, either a sound simulator or noisemaker... wouldn't that sorta give the situation away once you went to SHOW TRUTH under the conditions you proposed above?

also, if the weapon locked onto a friendly, you would definitely know this because, under your proposal, SHOW TRUTH wouldn't be available and the weapon is locked on...

nahhh, i'd rather leave the sub crew to make a determination on whether or not the target has been destroyed, based on sensor data, and the hairs on the back of their neck if necessary...

hey, it's definitely a challenge to find the right mix on this one... but for me, SHOW TRUTH, for that matter, any option that places a camera where it would not normally be, is a compromise to the virtual reality of the sim...

my suggestion would be to add a lil more to the immersion factor of being aboard a particular vessel... surely there's a lot going on aboard a sub during tracking and engaging a contact.

also... and this has been ignored through the thread...

... i'm sure that all the missions we will be offered will not climax in a shootem up free fire excercise, at least i hope not.

there will undoubtedly be a few covert, intel gathering missions, where SHOW TRUTH will surely ruin it for everyone involved...

what about track and trail missions... you should only see the other guy if you both happen to pop scopes at the same time, or if you get close enough to get an underwater camera or periscope shot of his props and underside...

... for me, this is what will make it 'real'... not being able to select SHOW ME EVERYTHING, and then being able to see all...

... ya gotta earn those views :know:

... but i also must realize that others may enjoy this SHOW TRUTH thing, and to totally write it off wouldn't be fair to them.

like i said before... not an easy decision for the S Team

I'm sure they'll come up with an acceptable solution.

--Mike

[wathomas777]

I agree 100 percent.

In Red Storm Rising, you ONLY got the pay off if you hit the target, if the torpedo was spoofed, it said it was spoofed.

I was simply providing a compromise. I would only show truth if your weapon did indeed hit it's target. If it didn't hit it's target, then you would be left wondering what it did hit.

The only time I would show a pay off is if "all the conditions" on your sensor data agree.

- The solution was accurate enough to generate a "hit"
- The hit target was the target that was assigned to the weapon.

Just like in real life, If I hear an explosion that is not along the right bearing, or my fire solution is way off, then I would not show the payoff.

And since you didn't "earn" that information, the only way you may know is when Comsublant, is pulling your command for firing upon a cruise ship.

Personally I would force the player to earn all the information. If he wants to watch his target sink, then let him pull up a periscope and watch it on the periscope and risk counterdetection.

I really hope they do better on the fire control screens this time and provide us with something that is more accurate in terms of what is actually displayed on a BSY-1 or BSY-2 FC screen, instead of their own "stylized" renditions of these screens. It really blows the suspension of disbelief for me.

[Jamie]

[Jamie]

[nattydread]