| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Do you agree with the idea of having greater seperation between graphics and "the truth" if you had the option of having the two existing ways as well ? |
| Yes |
|
53% |
[ 8 ] |
| No |
|
46% |
[ 7 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 15 |
|
| Author |
Message |
HippyOfWar
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 124
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:09 am Post subject: re: show truth and wire frame models |
 |
|
As you know with sub command if you played the game with show truth you got to see the ships etc without the wireframe models and vice versa..
I was wondering if you guys would consider a third option which would let you see "show truth" style graphics of your classifications and 3d World while not having all the objects appear (thereby preventing spoliers).
I hope this is easy to understand - I just want to see greater seperation between the graphics and "the truth" in DW unless the player wanted it to be the other way.
Oh yeah - and the windowed 3D mode in SC was ok but I would not mind if it became a completely external thing- eg. how Silent Hunter 2 used the keyboard keys to view externally instead of a windowed mode. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
XabbaRus
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 6949
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
??????
Don't understand what you are getting at.
Why do you want wireframe in Show Truth? To save on graphics power? The whole point of show truth was to do just that.
When not using truth wire-frame just represented a contact which wasn't classified except as surface or submerged.
I don't get what you mean by third option.
Your asking that if show truth is used wireframe models show instead of full blown ship so it is more like show truth but only half the truth? OR are you meaning that if show truth is on and you pick up a contact it is show as wireframe?
I hope in DW there will be a way of locking off show truth at the beginning of a mission and it can't be turned on during the mission. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pigfish
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 2044
Location: Alberta, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Does Hippy mean the box and confidence bar that appear with a contact when looked at in 3D?  They are always there with truth off. Once classified with a confidence of high that these should dissapear? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Egan
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 2325
Location: Red Clydeside
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I vote No. I think its fine the way it is. If i put on 'Show Truth,' I generally WANT to see everything in the game world. Having a system where you can put on 'Show Truth,' for objects you have started tracking and no others is, i feel, not really that usefull to me although others may disagree. Bsides, if you want show truth style graphics without show truth on, just classify the contact.
As for the windowed 3D, i don't quite understand. I have full-screen 3D, just like in SH2. you can switch it from windowed to full screen if you want. just click on the icon in the box. I assume you are talking about when you are on the map screen and there is a little 3D view in the top righthand corner? Hope this helps adress your concern. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jamie
Joined: 07 Jul 2002
Posts: 779
Location: Waterford, CT (USA)
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey guys,
Well, this one was a very tricky concept to tackle when we designed SC. The shift from using true posiitional 3D (in 688) to solution-based 3D (in SC) was one that had to be done (anyone remember the "follow the torpedo" cheat in 688? That one was pretty disastrous for multi-player  ).
So the big concern was how do we communicate to the player that what they see in 3D is not really there... We went through a couple iterations before we decided on the "wireframe" approach and we hoped that that would be sufficient (we tried the use of transparency in the solution models, but that didnt look good at all).
Then, of course, SC came out... all over the forums we heard "My torpedo went right through the ship! This game is sooo buggy!!!" ... [sigh] 
We still think the depiction of solutions in 3D is worth doing and unless anyone comes up with a better paradigm for displaying a model that is not necessarily where it is on the map, the wireframe approach will most likely be maintained.
One notable difference will be the use of the CONFIDENCE value, this time we're going to ask the player to promote a contact over the link in order for the fleet to attack it. Also, since all the link allies will be shown in their true locations (assuming the link is not damaged/destroyed/over-the-horizon/out-of-range) it will be more obvious as to which entities are real, and which are just depictions of solution data. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HippyOfWar
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 124
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
what i meant was that i wished i could get a "show truth" 3D world view view without having to have all undetected vessels showing on the map at the same time..
For example - I like to watch one of my missiles head to its target and would rather the "show truth view" for the results but I dont like the fact every other vessel will show on the map becuase i want it that way.
wireframe views to me detract from the 3d gaming view experience..
maybe if the wireframe lovers wanted to have such a view maybe they should not have 3d on at all and ppl that wanted to see the 3d world would have a great non-wireframe (show truth) view WITHOUT being able to cheat -prehaps no available targeting information and no way to get data on it or discover the objects position ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HippyOfWar
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 124
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
further onto what i said in my last post i would like to propose what I think would be a good alternative concept of presenting 3d that is not there as jamie talked about in his post.
I propose that the two existing methods of representing the 3D world be kept as they are but strenghtened so that:
Concept:
3D window is only included exclusively in "Show Truth Mode". Complete removal of wire frame models.
Another mode where player is forced to only use HUD map 2D display. No 3D is Available
Some kind of "Area Masking" in "Show Truth Mode" so that players will only see REAL objects within a user specified radius and not the entire map. Show Truth has customisable visual/contact parametres.
Easy to toggle between modes with the "show truth" Shortcut. Or the player may be able to disable "Mode Switching" in main options b4 game starts.
As I have heard often, many experienced naval simmers dont play with 3D at all! Lets make the 3D window an exclusive part of show truth - and also make "show Truth" customisable !! This concept removes the need to display a 3D enviroment that is not there! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
XabbaRus
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 6949
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well wire-frame is only seen when no-truth is being played.
Hippy what you are suggesting seems too complicated.
I don't see the point of having only detected vessels show up in show-truth. The whole point of show truth is to show exactly that.
As for locking off the 3D window I think that isn't really necessary if people are playing with no truth.
Like I said earlier I think it would be better for show-truth to be disabled before a mission starts and no way to enable it in the mission. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HippyOfWar
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 124
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I don't see the point of having only detected vessels show up in show-truth. The whole point of show truth is to show exactly that. |
well i meant that all vessels with show up (not just detected ones) but if you could somehow prevent mask more distant ones I would was happy with that but i see what u mean anyhow..
As jamie said, sonalysts moved from a positional based 3d world to the current world in which they tried to show things that were "not there" with 3d wireframe models.. They done this I belive becuase of the ability to cheat using the 3d window.
Now this approach in itself seems to have complictaed matters - I feel the problem is the 3d window itself.. Now if you could only get the 3d window in "show truth" it would solve the need to show objects that are not really there.
Secondary Issue
I love the 3d view - but I dont like it for the non-truth wireframe models - i like it for the "show truth" models and often switch to "show truth" to get my view - the problem with the current system is that by enabling your prefered view (non-wirefram/labels in show truth) you also loose the challenge of the game by seeing everything. Hence was my idea for "area masking" - but yes, it does make things more complicated. Maybe it is still better to show ALL objects on the map for the sake of simplicity.
So all in all - if the 3d view could only be turned on in "show truth" mode at least it would remove the need to try and display contacts that are "not there".. I am all for keeping show truth as it is except making the 3d window an exclusive part of show truth to solve the need for wireframe models and cheating. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jamie
Joined: 07 Jul 2002
Posts: 779
Location: Waterford, CT (USA)
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey guys,
Well, I've given quite a bit of thought, and thank you all for get this dicussion going. Thank you especially to HippyofWar, your breakdown and detailed suggestion for an alternative was much appreciated and that approach is exactly what we're looking for (not just a criticism but also potential solutions - always an excellent approach to finding the best way to come up with solutions)
Anyway here is my take:
| Quote: | | For example - I like to watch one of my missiles head to its target and would rather the "show truth view" for the results but I dont like the fact every other vessel will show on the map becuase i want it that way. |
Well, in Sub Command we provided the "Show Dead Platforms" cheat. In combination with the toggling of the Cinematic Camera (F12 in the NAV screen, I think) you will be able to watch all of your incoming weapons hit all of their targets, kill those targets, and then watch them explode and/or sink (in essence it is a "Show Truth with a Preview of Destructon") So it's only for entities that are going to die anyway and then the show truth option kicks in just for those entities and remains active until they are removed.
As far as your approach HippyofWar, I'll try to take them one at a time:
| Quote: | 1) 3D window is only included exclusively in "Show Truth Mode". Complete removal of wire frame models.
2) Another mode where player is forced to only use HUD map 2D display. No 3D is Available |
Well, I can say outright that "no 3D at all" is just not an option. 3D sells games, and without it we'd be at a severe disadvantage in the marketplace.
The current implementation of 3D as a representation of solution data so in reality there "should be" no possible way the player could cheat. It merely is a representation of the exact same data that is shown on the NAV map (so it does not provided any added capabilities to the player to cheat in any way they wouldn't be able to glean just from the NAV map alone).
Also, the player is fully capable of disabling the 3D view entirely... That's what the option is there for in the 3D Options screen. As you mentioned, some people prefer that, and that's perfectly fine.
| Quote: |
3) Some kind of "Area Masking" in "Show Truth Mode" so that players will only see REAL objects within a user specified radius and not the entire map. Show Truth has customisable visual/contact parametres. |
Well, if a contact is within visual range, it is in essence a "semi-truth" contact while it remains in range since you can actually SEE him and classify him relatively easily... But there is no reason to show truth, because then the player would be able to see what the hooked platform's damage level is which would be a distinct advantage to the player (in essence a small cheat).
| Quote: | | 4) Easy to toggle between modes with the "show truth" Shortcut. Or the player may be able to disable "Mode Switching" in main options b4 game starts. |
Not sure how this would work exactly, so I can't really comment on it. 
| Quote: | | As I have heard often, many experienced naval simmers dont play with 3D at all! Lets make the 3D window an exclusive part of show truth - and also make "show Truth" customisable !! This concept removes the need to display a 3D enviroment that is not there! |
You have to keep in mind that the 3D view is only a depiction of the solution data that is shown on the NAV map itself at that time (it does NOTHING more than that). So to separate the two elements (the solution data/NAV data and the 3D view) into distinct modes of use (i.e. information representation) would not only be confusing but also more difficult to test for playability concerns.
Given that the 3D mode goes hand in hand with the NAV data, I think the filtering of NAV data and the truth and solution-based contacts (and when to show both) is fairly customizable in SC:
Show Truth - Show everyone, regardless of alliance. Show damage levels, etc.
Show Link Data - Show allies and their locations. Threats or unknown contacts are not visible in their true locations (solutions are shown for non-allied platforms in the scenario).
(NOTE: not truly modelling the link, otherwise you'd see link transmitted solution data from those allies too - which is what we're modelling in DW)
Show Dead Platforms - Show all entities that have been destroyed (friend or foe). It is in essence a cheat that allows players to verify whether their classifications were correct [how many times have we all sunk a fishing boat by accident?  ]
| Quote: | | Like I said earlier I think it would be better for show-truth to be disabled before a mission starts and no way to enable it in the mission. |
Hey Xabba,
I think the issue with this is when would the player be confronted with this choice? Every mission (in all missions (single and campaign)?
Why is it necessary when the player has the control (and will power, we hope) to just NOT use it at all ... or is the temptation just too great?
I think the suggestion is certainly a valid solution, but it may get obtrusive to have to answer that question before every single player scenario (The person hosting a MP mission can obviously lock-out the show truth option, so we took that into account).
We've discussed creating a persitsent selection at the beginning of a campaign asking the player to decide whether he/she would ever use "Show Truth" in that campaign... But we felt the campaigns were hard enough and we didn't want to infuriate the player any further.
| Quote: | | I am all for keeping show truth as it is except making the 3d window an exclusive part of show truth to solve the need for wireframe models and cheating. |
HippyofWar,
Again, I think that would just put us at a severe disadvantage to market the game. We are going to try to refine our scheme for displaying solution-based entities in 3D and see if we can more clearly communicate that the object may indeed "not be where it seems to be"...
That is still the challenge, and we must figure out a subtle change that will further re-inforce that notion, rather than make a drastic change (as you suggested) that although it ensures there will be no confusion, in the end it greatly hurts the representation of the product as a whole...
[back to the drawing board, I guess] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michiel de Ruyter
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 230
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jamie,
To be honest, I always thought the wire frame around classified contacts was a bit superfluous. Having the confidence banner above the contact communicated the fact that it was your own solution you were looking at quite clearly.
Wouldn't it be possible to make a separate full-screen 3D screen (separate from the NAV-screen I mean), always set to ShowTruth, which could/would be disabled by the host of an MP-game? (Sorta like Hippy was suggesting).
I think that what Hippy is getting at is a sort of SelectiveShowTruth, which would be a ShowTruth, but only for the contact/vessel selected on the nav-screen. Meaning that if a vessel is traveling in a convoy, where you would get a glimps of all other vessels in ShowTruth, you would only see the one selected vessel in SelectiveShowTruth. I'm not exactly sure what that would accomplish, but it seems to be what Hippy is suggesting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jamie
Joined: 07 Jul 2002
Posts: 779
Location: Waterford, CT (USA)
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Michiel de Ruyter wrote: |
To be honest, I always thought the wire frame around classified contacts was a bit superfluous. Having the confidence banner above the contact communicated the fact that it was your own solution you were looking at quite clearly. |
Well, that is something we've discussed (as soon as the player selects a platform to classify the contact as, we would remove the "four corner" border box and just have some depiction of the confidence. With the addition of displaying whether a contact has been promoted to the LINK and also what the suggested tactic for the link participants will be for that contact. Some of that can be shown in the DDI, but it would most likely be helpful in 3D as well.
| Quote: | | Wouldn't it be possible to make a separate full-screen 3D screen (separate from the NAV-screen I mean), always set to ShowTruth, which could/would be disabled by the host of an MP-game? (Sorta like Hippy was suggesting). |
My first question would be how do you select the contacts (if you no longer hook them in the NAV map)? And it seems as though that would be even less integrated into the whole battle space metaphor than the way it was in SC.
| Quote: | | I think that what Hippy is getting at is a sort of SelectiveShowTruth, which would be a ShowTruth, but only for the contact/vessel selected on the nav-screen. Meaning that if a vessel is traveling in a convoy, where you would get a glimps of all other vessels in ShowTruth, you would only see the one selected vessel in SelectiveShowTruth. I'm not exactly sure what that would accomplish, but it seems to be what Hippy is suggesting. |
Yah, I guess I'm just not seeing the value. Providing the functionality for an individual platform to "Show Truth" seems superfluous, as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pumpkin
Joined: 07 Jul 2002
Posts: 514
Location: Dorset U.K.
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jamie wrote: |
Well, if a contact is within visual range, it is in essence a "semi-truth" contact while it remains in range since you can actually SEE him and classify him relatively easily... But there is no reason to show truth, because then the player would be able to see what the hooked platform's damage level is which would be a distinct advantage to the player (in essence a small cheat).
|
Slightly different topic but how about a sail autocrew that automatically classifies ships within visual range?
Also, not sure if this has been raised before but..... :wink:
How about when you give a contact a high level of confidence manually the autocrew can not change it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michiel de Ruyter
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 230
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jamie wrote: | | My first question would be how do you select the contacts (if you no longer hook them in the NAV map)? And it seems as though that would be even less integrated into the whole battle space metaphor than the way it was in SC. |
No,no. I didn't mean a screen to *replace* the 3D as in SC, but an extra screen (call it WorldView, or whatever) under an F-key (F9 was free in SC IIRC). So my idea would be: keep the nav 3D screen (with functionality, like ShTr or Show Dead) as we had in SC and have one extra screen (the WorldView) which is always set to ShTr. Of course when ShTR is set, the nav 3D and the Worldview would show the same thing. But I do think when ShTr is off, the fact that you actually have to switch screen to see what's going on might be a higher threshold then just switching ShTR off. By the same token, you could decide to leave the ShTr entirely to the WorldView and as standard set the nav 3D to the solution of the moment.
The thing is, nobody wants others 'riding the torpedo' as per 688i H/K, but just about everyone wants to see things go BOOM and slowly sink into the bottom mud. The ShowDead feature was a fair stab at the problem, but (for me at least) not quite as satisfying as seeing what really happened (I get a morbid kick out of seeing a surface target manouver to get out of my ADCAPs way)
And what would be xtra, xtra cool, is the ability to save the data from the WorldView for AARs. But I'm guessing the amount of data involved would be a bit unwieldy. Still, if you guys could pull it off, that would be really cool.
PS Neal or anyone: How many posts do I need to get rid of the stupid headgear?
Last edited by Michiel de Ruyter on Sat Nov 08, 2003 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Furia
Joined: 14 Mar 2001
Posts: 558
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 3:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Michiel de Ruyter wrote: |
PS Neal or anyone: How many posts do I need to get rid of the stupid headgear? |
Good question  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
