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Kapitan
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 5385
Location: essex england also st petersburg russia
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 Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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i do so wish that we did have such a smart computer.
in reality if a typhoon got a chip in the propellor or a dent it wouldnt radiate the same sounds as if it was a clean propellor hence why the navy recorded everything |
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Kirk
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 71
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: Thanks to all |
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| Hello all. Thanks for the ideas. I wanted to try something so I set up my sub, an enemy and a carrier. Make a long story short. The carrier(which was a good guy) did nothing. The enemy fired off 5 torpedos. Some how using everyone's ideas I was able to get away. So, thanks again. |
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sonar732
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 1358
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Kapitain wrote: | i do so wish that we did have such a smart computer.
in reality if a typhoon got a chip in the propellor or a dent it wouldnt radiate the same sounds as if it was a clean propellor hence why the navy recorded everything |
I didn't say that we didn't have something along those lines. Just didn't have a computer to tell us. |
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Kapitan
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 5385
Location: essex england also st petersburg russia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:44 am Post subject: |
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no what i mean is you havnt got the same as what jonesey had
you got a file libray of sonar recordings for ships and subs i know that much |
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sonar732
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 1358
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Kapitain wrote: |
you got a file libray of sonar recordings for ships and subs i know that much |
When I was in, it was a big red book marked "Top Secret". |
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GhOsT55
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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lets put it this way if its active yur screwed  or u have a very little chance of getting away |
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BigBadVuk
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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NOP..in stock 1.03 torpedo will explode if u drop active decoy in front of him....In LWAMI mod he will go for decoy sometime..and he will not explods so it is up to you try to get off his active cone!
And of coures there is a bit of luck in all that  |
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SeaQueen
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 358
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Evading a torpedo |
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| Kirk wrote: | | Is there a trick for escaping from a torpedo? And is there a way to find out where the torpedo s without use Truth? Thanks for any help. |
In Dangerous Waters:
1) Counterfire - ALWAYS shoot back if you're shot at. That's what the SNAPSHOT presets are for on the Weps station.
Be aggressive. Match his torpedos one-for-one back along the bearing of the incoming torpedo, set it to go active about 2kyds. Active sonar from a torpedo rattles a lot of people. You want that. Set it to snake search so that it follows that bearing as far as it can.
The purpose of this torpedo is not to make a carefully aimed shot at anything. Don't worry necessarily about the wire or anything. It probably won't hit anything if the guy who shot at you is good. That misses the point, though. You want to give the bad guy something he has to worry about while you're evading. Nothing is better than forcing him to evade as well. Counterfire, well placed or not, is potentially lethal to someone who doesn't do something to avoid it. Even then it has a slim chance of getting them.
Torpedos also make a lot of noise and clutter up his narrow and broadband sonar, hence it becomes more difficult to track you while you're evading. In a sense, they're like a free passive decoy.
While he's evading, he's not worrying about wire guidence, or other things. He's trying to get as far away as possible from the torpedo. Since the torpedo is coming from your direction, that usually makes you harder to track on sonar as well.
After you've given the guy who shot at you something to think about besides you...
2) Countermeasures... the more the better. Drop as many as you can of all types. Think statistics. If the probability that a torpedo will be decoyed is p, then the probability that torpedo will be decoyed at least once is 1-(1-p)^n. So... you want to make n as big as possible so that the torpedo is as likely as possible to go after decoys. Keep an eye on your countermeasures tubes and reload them as quickly as possible. When they're reloaded, shoot some more. Keep doing it until you KNOW that enemy torpedo is well past you or has detonated on something else.
3) Pick a random direction and quickly move away from the area. In the midst of all the noise caused by your torpedo and noisemakers, you want to increase the size of the area of uncertainty for the bad guy's firing solution. People (and the AI) seem to favor long range shots set to snake searches, which gives some advantage to going perpendicular to the torpedo. If the bad guy shoots a circle search torpedo, though, and has a good firing solution on you, perpendicular is no better than any other direction. A smart adversary will probably anticipate that too.
You want to go as fast as you can. With all the narrowband and broadband energy in the water, from your snapshots and noisemakers, stealth isn't really that important. Everyone knows you're there. That's why you got shot at in the first place.
If the badguy's torpedo can search that an area a and his area of uncertainty surrounding you is A, then his torpedos probability of detecting you is a/A. As A gets very big, a/A gets very small.
5) Pick the best depth for evasion. Typically this is just a tad below the depth of maximum sound speed.
Putting all these pieces together should make you very difficult to hit in the game.
Last edited by SeaQueen on Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bellman
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1724
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Some additions to SQs excellent brief -
Location:
Drop a UUV - if you have time and the correct speed. It can keep you in touch with a baffled torp and maintain
situational awareness.
''TIW'' - Check BB initialy at the called bearing and assign a tracker. Has it got your name on it ?
Is the track steady, curving 'away' or curving towards your baffles as you scoot. Monitor BB.
Escape:
Some clear the datum at 90 deg relative to torps bearing, Some prefer 135 ish but it really depends on
how accuarate is your estimate of the range of the incoming !
Choose 90-120 deg in LwAmi - remember the 120 deg SA baffle and your TA imay be temporarily screwed.
Multi CMs may not be a possibility and even in the SW beware giving a cool-headed opponent
a 'trail.' to track ! IMO Cms are best kept shelved ready for emergency use when torp is relatively 'close-in.'
If you get the distinctive torp pings - get into AISS. If, as at present there is no increasing rate of ping
frequency you have to estimate torps range from the visual display
Sweat and work hard !! |
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Nexus7
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 275
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Evading a torpedo |
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| SeaQueen wrote: | | Kirk wrote: | | Is there a trick for escaping from a torpedo? And is there a way to find out where the torpedo s without use Truth? Thanks for any help. |
In Dangerous Waters:
1) Counterfire - ALWAYS shoot back if you're shot at. That's what the SNAPSHOT presets are for on the Weps station.
Be aggressive. Match his torpedos one-for-one back along the bearing of the incoming torpedo, set it to go active about 2kyds. Active sonar from a torpedo rattles a lot of people. You want that. Set it to snake search so that it follows that bearing as far as it can.
The purpose of this torpedo is not to make a carefully aimed shot at anything. Don't worry necessarily about the wire or anything. It probably won't hit anything if the guy who shot at you is good. That misses the point, though. You want to give the bad guy something he has to worry about while you're evading. Nothing is better than forcing him to evade as well. Counterfire, well placed or not, is potentially lethal to someone who doesn't do something to avoid it. Even then it has a slim chance of getting them.
Torpedos also make a lot of noise and clutter up his narrow and broadband sonar, hence it becomes more difficult to track you while you're evading. In a sense, they're like a free passive decoy.
While he's evading, he's not worrying about wire guidence, or other things. He's trying to get as far away as possible from the torpedo. Since the torpedo is coming from your direction, that usually makes you harder to track on sonar as well.
After you've given the guy who shot at you something to think about besides you...
2) Countermeasures... the more the better. Drop as many as you can of all types. Think statistics. If the probability that a torpedo will be decoyed is p, then the probability that torpedo will be decoyed at least once is 1-(1-p)^n. So... you want to make n as big as possible so that the torpedo is as likely as possible to go after decoys. Keep an eye on your countermeasures tubes and reload them as quickly as possible. When they're reloaded, shoot some more. Keep doing it until you KNOW that enemy torpedo is well past you or has detonated on something else.
3) Pick a random direction and quickly move away from the area. In the midst of all the noise caused by your torpedo and noisemakers, you want to increase the size of the area of uncertainty for the bad guy's firing solution. People (and the AI) seem to favor long range shots set to snake searches, which gives some advantage to going perpendicular to the torpedo. If the bad guy shoots a circle search torpedo, though, and has a good firing solution on you, perpendicular is no better than any other direction. A smart adversary will probably anticipate that too.
You want to go as fast as you can. With all the narrowband and broadband energy in the water, from your snapshots and noisemakers, stealth isn't really that important. Everyone knows you're there. That's why you got shot at in the first place.
If the badguy's torpedo can search that an area a and his area of uncertainty surrounding you is A, then his torpedos probability of detecting you is a/A. As A gets very big, a/A gets very small.
5) Pick the best depth for evasion. Typically this is just a tad below the depth of maximum sound speed.
Putting all these pieces together should make you very difficult to hit in the game. |
BOTC's "secret" engagement tactics ? :8 :hmm:  :doh:  |
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Wim Libaers
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 396
Location: Flanders
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| sonar732 wrote: | | Kapitain wrote: | | its true jonesy even said so and he was sonar |
Yea....and as if we had a dot matrix printer that printed out the name of the boat/ship we were classifying...  |
Probably doubling the noise level of the sub... |
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SeaQueen
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 358
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Evading a torpedo |
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| Nexus7 wrote: | | BOTC's "secret" engagement tactics ? :8 :hmm: :doh: |
I have no idea what people teach in BOTC. I was just saying what I thought the best thing to do in DW is and why I think it. I'm sure a lot of the kiddies here have figured out that in the game, it works really well. |
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LuftWolf
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1872
Location: Free New York
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 2) Countermeasures... the more the better. Drop as many as you can of all types. Think statistics. If the probability that a torpedo will be decoyed is p, then the probability that torpedo will be decoyed at least once is 1-(1-p)^n. So... you want to make n as big as possible so that the torpedo is as likely as possible to go after decoys. Keep an eye on your countermeasures tubes and reload them as quickly as possible. When they're reloaded, shoot some more. Keep doing it until you KNOW that enemy torpedo is well past you or has detonated on something else. |
SeaQueen, I don't think this is good advice.
In LWAMI, where countermeasures don't destroy torpedoes, if you drop a line of countermeasures along your evasion course, the torpedo will frequently follow the line of decoys from the original datum into the datum you are clearing to!!!
I have laid a line of decoys that torpedoes have followed up to 10 miles from my original position and killed me on my evasion routines exactly twice... and I vow that's not going to happen again.
It is crucial, if you chose to use two decoys, to put them as close as possible to each other WITHOUT them being right on top of each other... say a spread of a 100 yards or maybe a little more is good. If you chose to use more than two decoys on the same torpedo, the best bet is to place the groups MORE than 3-4nm apart (or the max detection range of the seeker of the torpedo following you) so that if one group of decoys spoof the torpedo, it's not going to turn to home in the on the second group of decoys and thus turn the torpedo onto your evasion course and towards your new position.
Once you have cleared your original datum, it is ESSENTIAL to stop and reestablish tactical awareness, preferably via a combination of your UUV and TA, since your opponent should be clearing his datum as well.
In submarine combat using wireguided torpedoes that can be directed, the one who wins is typically the one who is most conservative with his countermeasures and the most quick to come out of a clearing sprint ONCE the datum has been cleared, since the first shot of a torpedo rarely kills, but rather the torpedo that is first redirected that often scores the victory.
For me, evading torpedoes is all about just enough datum clearing to allow you to survive to steer your torpedoes effectively, and you can't do that at 33kts dropping decoys blindly to your stern, since your opponent is just going to resteer his torpedoes anyway. 
Against an opponent who knows what he is doing, once wireguided torpedoes are in the water, you are going to be evading until they are unable to steer the torpedo, so it's best to try to take the offensive initiative as much as possible, and this means making your clearing sprints as short as you think you can given the circumstances. |
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Bellman
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1724
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:10 am Post subject: |
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As I said above '' giving a cool-headed opponent a 'trail.' to track ! IMO CMs are best kept shelved ready for
emergency use when torp is relatively 'close-in.''
A prime MP beginner fault, which we have all commited, is to panic at TIW and pump CMs so either a cavitation
or a CM trail is blood in the water ! Often in MP the torp is destined for another target so the first step is
investigate at an appropriate tactical speed while clearing the datum. That's the advantage of the SW !! |
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SeaQueen
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 358
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| LuftWolf wrote: |
In LWAMI, where countermeasures don't destroy torpedoes, if you drop a line of countermeasures along your evasion course, the torpedo will frequently follow the line of decoys from the original datum into the datum you are clearing to!!!
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That's why I argued you should change to a random course.
| Quote: |
In submarine combat using wireguided torpedoes that can be directed, the one who wins is typically the one who is most conservative with his countermeasures and the most quick to come out of a clearing sprint ONCE the datum has been cleared, since the first shot of a torpedo rarely kills, but rather the torpedo that is first redirected that often scores the victory.
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To use wire guidence effectively, he has to either have an idiot do something like leave a trail of breadcrumbs to himself or be able maintain a good firing solution on you. The random course change should confuse his firing solution. Getting to your best depth for evasion might cause him to lose contact all together.
I don't put as much faith in wire guidence as you do. It can definitely be helpful but if you're clever it doesn't need to be a killer because the guy shooting at you has imperfect information.
I also don't think you should put as much faith in your own wire guidence as you do, because if your opponent got the first shot off at you, it's best to assume he has achieved a decent firing solution faster than you did. In that case, what makes you think you can wire guide your torpedo effectively? It's not a good idea to obsess over your snapshots hitting. If you notice that your opponent makes himself obvious or something, you should definitely capitalize on it, but there's no guarantee he'll do that.
In fact, it might often be better to just drop the wire on a snapshot and reload so you're ready with another shot more quickly in case the snapshot flushes him out. It's often better to shoot more torpedoes than to place all of one's faith in one "silver bullet."
| Quote: |
For me, evading torpedoes is all about just enough datum clearing to allow you to survive to steer your torpedoes effectively, and you can't do that at 33kts dropping decoys blindly to your stern, since your opponent is just going to resteer his torpedoes anyway.
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This isn't what I advocated. |
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