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Terror~of~the~seas
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Lurking ominously in the fog...
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 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: Something about the Enigma "timeline"... |
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| If the strategic positions of the various powers (in the "Enigma universe") are so dramatically different from those which they were in real life... why then are the nations involved still developing and deploying the exact-same equipment as they did in history? U-boats like the Type VII and IX were very specifically designed for the blockading of England. If, by the onset of WW2, various elements of the British government and monarchy had already (in essence) "sold" use of the nation's airfields and ports to Germany... why then would the Germans still be building equipment designed for operations against England which simply were no longer necessary? In order to send long-range patrols against the United States and Japanese, one would think they'd need much larger, ocean-going "fleet submarines" along the lines of those launched in the United States and Japanese navies (the Type IX may have been large by U-boat standards, but it was still miniscule next to boats like the American Narwhal or Japanese I-series). In the same capacity, why would the RNE still be relying so heavily on ASW-type escorts like the Flower - when against a fictional U.S. enemy it would more likely be heavily-armed AAA vessels that would prove most necessary (given the inferiority number of submarines but superior number of long-range ocean patrol aircraft in the U.S. navy)? Just a thought... |
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EAST
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 1311
Location: Eugene, OR. USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting questions..where were you when we were writing this!
| Quote: | | If the strategic positions of the various powers (in the "Enigma universe") are so dramatically different from those which they were in real life... |
They aren't radically different, there were just different outcomes based on real life events happening in slightly different ways...
| Quote: | | U-boats like the Type VII and IX were very specifically designed for the blockading of England. |
Blockading of Ireland, Gibraltar and the (planned) German "Northern Bridge" enforcement. Technological advances are basically the same, only political boundaries changed (for the most part).
| Quote: | | various elements of the British government and monarchy had already (in essence) "sold" use of the nation's airfields and ports to Germany... |
Britain lost WWI to Germany.
| Quote: | | why then would the Germans still be building equipment designed for operations against England which simply were no longer necessary? |
Germany has some substantially different equipment that you will begin to see in the forthcoming chapters.
| Quote: | | In the same capacity, why would the RNE still be relying so heavily on ASW-type escorts like the Flower - when against a fictional U.S. enemy it would more likely be heavily-armed AAA vessels that would prove most necessary (given the inferiority number of submarines but superior number of long-range ocean patrol aircraft in the U.S. navy)? Just a thought... |
The USA isn't the RNE's enemy. The LFN (League of Free Nations) to which the RNE is a member see's America as a necessary ally, or at least an unwilling ally. Many attempts are made by the LFN to bring the USA into a war against Germany. It just didn't work out that way for the LFN. Smaller ships also let the LFN have a substantially lower profile as the larger countries don't pay nearly as much attention to them. In trying to supply the terrorists in Ireland, create their stepping stones back to England, one of the LFN's biggest threats are patroling submarines.
Now for an acknowledgement: We did discuss some of this, but some of our timeline was dictated by the models that, under a less rigid control, were chosen to be added to the game without regard for the history...by whom shall remain...a secret. So the history had some artificial constraints during it's initial construction. I think you will be pleased with what we are doing to correct this in the next chapters.
--East |
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Terror~of~the~seas
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Lurking ominously in the fog...
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:49 pm Post subject: Just my usual gibberish... |
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| EAST wrote: | | Interesting questions..where were you when we were writing this! |
Haha... no where in particular - a university lab. The most important element in making any simulation (or simulation 'oriented') game immersive to me has just always been the believabiliy of its timeline - real, 'or' fictional (usually, alternate histories are 'by nature' hard to believe, simply in that they did not in reality transpire). If Germany 'had' won World War 1 (personally, I don't believe this was materially or even geographically possible - with or without American entry - but, 'to each their own...'), logic suggests that the massive arms build-up required of Germany during that period would have left their forces (by Enigma's time) with simply massive quantities of outdated World War 1-era arms.
In Enigma for one, I have always hoped to see one of the older ocean-going German U-boats of World War 1 (Type V, maybe) as there are essentially no other games on the market today which allow you to pilot such an older, more surface-combat oriented class of submarine. More critically, Enigma's own in-game documentation suggests (under the design history of the featured U-boats) that massive numbers of such older boats were used... in a very essential manner... in this 'alternate' history of World War 1. If this was so, then where did they all go? Even in the real history of World War 2, some World War 1 U-boats did take to sea early on when allied code-breaking and ASW was at its most primitive.
Anyhow, the absence of such first World War German submarines... especially when said within the game to have performed so critical a role... is just one example, but there are many others I could think of if I thought you really wanted to read a novel (e.g., involvement in World War 1 and the threat of a very advanced Japanese Navy during the 30's are what really spearheaded the advancement of the United States Navy. Without these events having come to pass in 'Enigma history', would the Americans - lacking a near-equal threat to justify such a massive investment of public tax dollars - not still be relying on archaic ram-tipped battleships from the era of the Spanish-American War, rather than comparatively advanced (and, for their weight class, expensive) designs such as the Fletcher?)
One of my key qualms in the believability of the 'political climate' is simply British prejudice. Anyone who has lived in England knows that the English are an extraordinarily proud (and, militarily determined) group of people, and by all-accounts during World War 2 this pride and determination was multiplied 10-fold. As usually accompanies pride, however, they were also extremely prejudiced (both on racial and religious grounds)... and it is this combined pride and prejudice that makes a British alliance with Japan... regardless of the situation in the homeland... rather hard to swallow. If you think that "Americans" have a "got-it-alone" mentality, just look at the British - they stand on an infinitely 'smaller' island... !!
Haha... anyways... that's all for today.
P.S.: Don't get me wrong... I am glad that 'real'/historically-accurate vessels are included. I just thought that being able to (also) see a few ships which accurately reflected the alternate timeline would be neat... !
(Not to mention, allow you to pilot ships dating from Enigma's 'present' all of the way back to the 'masted ironclad battleships' of the late 1800s) |
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EAST
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 1311
Location: Eugene, OR. USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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The Fletcher and Buckley are two of my pet peeves for ships included. In the History we talk about all the rest of what is in the world, in the game, we could only include so much of it; we focused on using the models we had and crafting the campaign using these.
As for a British Japanese alliance - that was real life. In fact it was Britains unhappiness about the Japanese not pulling their weight in the agreement that led to the termination of the alliance - check history!
We have some type II, type V and SeeHund models done. These will probably show up in the Enigma "prequel". You will see some of the Type V's showing up in Chapter 3 as well when the German "character" is relegated to a seemingly low priority location with obsolete equipment.
Please note, the German Destroyer is a converted WWI Emden class Cruiser. We also have them purchasing a large number of Wickes class 4 stackers from the USA...
You will see more of the older USA ships (all factions actually) in coming chapters: New York Class battleships, Lexington Carriers - a number of ships from the 1917-1920 period. |
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Terror~of~the~seas
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Lurking ominously in the fog...
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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It's sad, I suppose... that you don't have a whole "engine room" of designers pumping out models 24/7... but that is life, I guess. Plus, depending on a few (3?) proven designers should insure that the "quality" of models will at least remain consistent (I hate it when, in a game, you can 'see' how different models came from 'different' creative mindsets).
| EAST wrote: | | We have some type II, type V and SeeHund models done. These will probably show up in the Enigma "prequel". You will see some of the Type V's showing up in Chapter 3 as well when the German "character" is relegated to a seemingly low priority location with obsolete equipment. |
The Type II is a relatively modern boat, technologically in line with the Type VII, but simply built to a smaller scale - intended merely for short-range/North Sea patrols. Actually, I have always hoped you would include it - as I have a certain fixation with pilotting the "little" guys (presently, the smallest sub is the VII - next to the II, a juggernaught).
| EAST wrote: | | As for a British Japanese alliance - that was real life. In fact it was Britains unhappiness about the Japanese not pulling their weight in the agreement that led to the termination of the alliance - check history! |
I know there was a 'tentative' alliance in World War 1, but did it actually lead to Japanese and British troops fighting side-by-side, in the same field of battle? In 'history' (I can not personally find any record of that), a British corvette skipper would have been quite happy to sink an I-boat.
| EAST wrote: | | Please note, the German Destroyer is a converted WWI Emden class Cruiser. We also have them purchasing a large number of Wickes class 4 stackers from the USA... |
I knew that their surface ships were of World War 1 vintage, although this was actually true at the real onset of World War 2 (their more famous modern battleships, pocket battleships, and heavy cruisers actually an elite breed). It was in this capacity more the absence of a Great War U-boat that had me curious. Plus, according to your timeline, where is Graf Spee (the man - or, in the Enigma universe, is he still killed at the Falklands during World War 1?)
| EAST wrote: | | You will see more of the older USA ships (all factions actually) in coming chapters: New York Class battleships, Lexington Carriers - a number of ships from the 1917-1920 period. |
Seeing as Pearl Harbour, nor any great battle of the Pacific, will yet have transpired... will the 'Lady Lex' be retaining its original armament of high-calibre guns on deck? Also, in the absence of a great war with the United States, one would think that in Japan the battleship-to-carrier ratio would more strongly favour battleships (than in life), perhaps allowing a greater number of "Super Battleships" - or, more of their interesting ideas for a battleship-carrier or battleship-seaplane tender hybrid (the Ise class was the most famous of this type). If the Germans had occupied Britain by the end of your version of World War 1, however, I suppose you would have to omit prominent but British-built Japanese battleships like the Kongo?
Finally, what is the difference between the "prequel" and the "next chapter". Are these going to be separate releases, or is one an expansion to ERT Gold? Thanks for your quick response... again! |
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EAST
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 1311
Location: Eugene, OR. USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:53 am Post subject: |
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The Prequel will be a separate release than Chapter 2, 3, 4...
We should chat offline about you participating in development....
east@warfleet.net |
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Terror~of~the~seas
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Lurking ominously in the fog...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Ha ha... I ~KNEW~ it... I stumped 'em... won the argument... !!! Ha ha... just kidding... um, anyways, sure - I'll e-you over the weekend sometime with endless further lengths of historic gibberish. Right now? There's a juvenile falcon of some kind... not sure which, unusually dark feathering with "racoon eyes"... sitting in one of my more massive Black Spruce Trees, so I'm likely to be out on deck with my binoculars and sketch pad for a while...! I'll think of something intelligent to say later on - of course, you realize that by that question you can only have gone insane ??? I guess I never warned you... Ooops! |
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EAST
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 1311
Location: Eugene, OR. USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I will return to responding, I had to go back and re-read some of our history and my notes.... |
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Terror~of~the~seas
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Lurking ominously in the fog...
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Were those screaching tires I heard just now... ?
(Ha ha... sent you some further thoughts at your e-mail) |
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