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Nitro
Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 225
Location: Atlantic Canada
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 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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The book's based on a true story...
| Quote: | | On November 8, 1975, the Storozhevoy, a Soviet Krivak-class missile frigate, attempted to run from Riga, Latvia, to the Swedish island of Gotland. The political officer aboard, Valery Sablin, led a mutiny of the enlisted personnel. Sablin and 26 others were court-martialled and shot. |
http://www.marxist.com/History/realredoctober900.html
We know now that Sablin was trying to start a political revolution, but at the time Clancy wrote the novel, all Western intelligence pointed towards a defection attempt, and that's what Clancy based his book on. If anything, Clancy made it *more* believable... The story of a political officer, of all people, attempting to defect sounds a lot more far-fetched then the story he wrote. |
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Bruno Lotse
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Posts: 585
Location: HMCS Toronto (K 538)
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Please, read in full the article published on marxist dot com.
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Until the end of the Cold War western intelligence believed that the crew was going to defect, and this was the basis of Clancy's book and the film. However, new evidence which emerged during the last days of the Soviet Union and which was revealed in the Channel Four programme shows that Clancy's account is inaccurate. The aim of the Sentry was not to defect to the West, nor could it be because the leader of the mutiny, Valery Sablin was a committed Communist. His intention was not to flee to the West, but to provoke a political revolution in the USSR with the aim of overthrowing the rule of the privileged Stalinist bureaucracy and restoring a genuine regime of Leninist soviet democracy. As the programme's notes put it: "A fervent believer in Communism, Sablin was making for Leningrad (now St Petersburg). Inspired by the memory of the battleship Potemkin, which had mutinied during the rising of 1905, and by the cruiser Aurora, which had ignited the revolution of 1917, he hoped that his mutiny would spark a new rebellion in Leningrad, and complete what he saw as the unfinished Russian Revolution." |
People like Sablin would never defect to US. He was evidently a hard-core Communist who believed that the Soviet Union betrayed the true Communist ideas. I bet he would hate US ten times more.[/quote] |
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Nitro
Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 225
Location: Atlantic Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Why don't you read my full post...
| Nitro wrote: | | We know now that Sablin was trying to start a political revolution, but at the time Clancy wrote the novel, all Western intelligence pointed towards a defection attempt, and that's what Clancy based his book on. |
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TLAM Strike
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 4866
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I’m starting to think BOTH of you didn’t read the book. Ramius’s wife was killed due to poor Soviet drugs and a drunken doctor. The system didn’t punish the drug maker or the doctor. Ramius’s mentor the fisherman was imprisoned by the government he helped create and feed and died before receiving the gifts from Ramius and his Father. Again the system failed Ramius. The Soviet Navy builds a weapon to strike first at the US, which would result in nuclear retaliation. The system wants Ramius to help in destroying his homeland.
Ramius wanted to punish the Soviet Union. His loyalty was to the Navy and his crew not the Soviet Union. He nevery betryed his crew. |
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Nitro
Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 225
Location: Atlantic Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| TLAM Strike wrote: | | Ramius’s wife was killed due to poor Soviet drugs and a drunken doctor. The system didn’t punish the drug maker or the doctor. Ramius’s mentor the fisherman was imprisoned by the government he helped create and feed and died before receiving the gifts from Ramius and his Father. Again the system failed Ramius. |
That was pretty much my initial point, actually. |
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Bruno Lotse
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Posts: 585
Location: HMCS Toronto (K 538)
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TLAM Strike wrote: |
Ramius wanted to punish the Soviet Union. His loyalty was to the Navy and his crew not the Soviet Union. He nevery betryed his crew. |
TLAM Strike, military oath of allegiance is not given to a branch of military service be it Navy, Air force, whatever, nor it's given to a group of military people - crew of a submarine or a tank. Oath of allegiance is given to the country, called Motherland. Anyone who breaks this oath is called a traitor. This is in all times and in all places always was the worst crime worthy of the worst punishment. In England they used to chop off the traitor's head and spike it high at the entrance of a castle for everybody to see.
I said that 'The red october' movie is a nonsense. Nitro writes that the movie 'sucked' . So we've agreed. Nothing left to talk about.
This is thread about K19 The Widowmaker movie. My position is known. If you guys have other thoughts on K19 - let's discuss K19. |
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bradclark1
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1007
Location: Connecticut, USA.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruno Lotse wrote: |
Boring? It's good. Once I heard that life on UBooten was 99% of extreme boredom and 1% of extreme terror. If you survive - then lots of fun ashore. If the Das Boot seems boring it means the movie is realistic and historically correct. War, after all, is not about entertainment, it's about survival. |
And there I thought movies were supposed to be entertaining. Silly me.
Brad |
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JJ
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Oulu, Finland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| But then again.. what is the definition of entertaining? |
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Kapitain
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:02 pm Post subject: K19 / Red october |
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red october is fictional totaly and in many cases during the "briefing" that ryan gave to the admiralty most of the information was wrong !
a typhoon submarine is not 33,000 tonnes in fact she displaces 48,000 tonnes and is 562 feet long (2 feet longer than the ohio) and is also 82.6ft wide (twice that of the ohio) as for blowing up the missile yes it is possible but you would have to make an inadvertant launch you cant do it from the missile humidity gauges found on the outside of the missile silo !
K19
a good movie a captain would never make the statement "hero of the soviet union" infront of the crew like that as only the premier has that right K19 was a simple submarine of a simple but effective design.
the destroyer shadowing the K19 is totaly fictional 100% its just put thier to entertain us and humiliate us russians during an interview conducted by breshnev in the 90's the captain (nikolai zateyev) emplored that thier was no forign activity near the K19 (in fact the nearest ship to K19 at the time was a british submarine oberon conducting trials in the norwiegen sea)
the K19 in the film is played by a defunct and obsolete diesel julliet class submarine K77 the rescue submarine is played by the also obsolete submarine HMCS (canadian) okanagen the destroyer is also canadian (and is infact a frigate)
to truth it all thier was acctualy 2 rescue submarines that came to the aid of K19 both from the gremikha 3rd submarine division and were of the foxtrot class
K19 is good for entertaining but for proving a point is useless i do belive it was screened just to humiliate russians and attempt to destroy russian moral i along with many other russians belive K19 story should be told right
Kaptain 1st rank Nikolai Zateyev died in 1999 from illness aged 61 and is buried along with his vrew in a moscow state cematery hounoring russias fallen |
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Kapitain
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:05 pm Post subject: something i forgot |
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i forgot this piece
может он и его отдых команды в части и продолжать thier contries работа рядом с богом и для thier сыновей, чтобы продолжить защищать нашу родину и делать Россию большой еще раз
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TLAM Strike
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 4866
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: K19 / Red october |
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| Kapitain wrote: | | K19 is good for entertaining but for proving a point is useless i do belive it was screened just to humiliate russians and attempt to destroy russian moral i along with many other russians belive K19 story should be told right |
Ford and Kathryn Bigalow (The Director) have said they tried to portray the Russians in a non-bias manner and hold great respect for the Russians.
I feel that the Russians in the movie were shown in a somewhat accurate light. They were not totally realistic but I think the courage of the Russian sailors at the core of the story overshadowed the more negative and Hollywood aspects of the movie. |
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Kapitan
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 5385
Location: essex england also st petersburg russia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject: then agan |
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Then again doctor your conecting an old view to new people
people of russia and former soviet union would die for thier country thier beliefs and most importantly they would die for each other,
personell of the former soviet navy were selected to serve on submarines today this practice is still followed it allows only the best to serve.
they did a good job on the movie but as for portraying a typical russian thats when they got it disastorusly wrong.
comments made by former admirals of the soviet navy emplored that the charecters are played to american beliefs not russian Captain 1st rank Igor Kurdin (submarine veterans club st petersburg) said " it makes us look like drunkerds and incompitant not patriots to our country its not a film its a shambles" and i agree strongly
the charecters make the entire crew look incompitant and drunk
why because most not all americans have a bitter and twisted view of our people the film just enforced it! |
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